Issues With 12000 Grit

[kfoss]

I have been playing around with smoothing some of my cheaper nibs and I have been frustrated by a weird problem. I am using the emery board style buff sticks to do the tuning. When I smooth with the 4000 grit I can get rid of all apparent scratchiness and get a nib that has good pencil like feedback, which is fine, but I am going for buttery smooth. So I then start up on the 12000 grit side but so often the scratchiness returns! What gives? What am I doing wrong? It seems to happen so quickly, after only a few swipes on the 12000 grit this issue pops up. It clearly starts to remove the pencil-like feel but the scratchiness makes it unpleasant.

[Karmachanic]

Have you checked the tines with a loupe?

[kfoss]

Have you checked the tines with a loupe?

Yes. Though I only have a 10x they seem aligned.

[TheDutchGuy]

Personally I don't think it has to do with the difference between 4k and 12k. Instead, I think it has to do with locating exactly where the scratchiness is coming from and then smoothing only that particular spot. That's not easy to do. The scratchiness can come from the outside edges of the tines or from the inside edges around the slit. To brush up only the inside edges, you can floss the tines. To brush up only the outside edges, you can position the nib somewhat sidewards so that the slit doesn't touch the grit. Doing figure 8's or any other pattern where the nib is horizontally on the grit will change both the inside and the outside edges, with the risk of fixing something and simultaneously causing something else. That's driven me nuts a few times as well. When in doubt, stop. What you take off of the tip is gone.

[Uncial]

Once you have the pencil-like feedback, mylar can be useful to polish it rather than grinding off more material, which may be what returns the scratchiness. You might start with the 12000 too, which is what I tend to do (i.e., don't use the 4000 at all).

[kfoss]

Once you have the pencil-like feedback, mylar can be useful to polish it rather than grinding off more material, which may be what returns the scratchiness. You might start with the 12000 too, which is what I tend to do (i.e., don't use the 4000 at all).

I had read that 0.3 um mylar paper is equivalent to 12000 grit, is that not the case? I thought the two were interchangeable and came down to preference.

[jekostas]

A couple of points:

 

-It's better to use Micromesh with some water to ensure that swarf is carried away.

 

-Don't skip through the grits. If you start at 4000 grit Micromesh, you need to do the 6000 and 8000 grit steps before you go to 12000 grit. Micromesh is a non-fracturing abrasive. When you use 4000 grit to start, you'll leave scratches and ridges in the tipping material that, at best, are going to take a long, long time to remove with 12000 grit abrasives. At worst, you're going to embed abrasives in the tipping material that will make the nib feel scratchy.

 

-Only use 4000 grit if you want to remove a fair amount of tipping material ie. re-shaping a nib or removing a flat spot. 6000 grit is a better starting point.

 

-If you use 4000 grit Micromesh to start you absolutely must polish the inner tines of the nib or they will be sharp. You're essentially grinding away a layer of tipping material and exposing the fresh cut edge on the inner tines.

 

As a last note, 12000 grit micromesh has particle sizing slightly under 1 micron. 0.3 Micron mylar paper would be another step (or two) smaller.

[minddance]

Inner tines are roughened by the 4000grit. Then the 12000grit takes off material at a much slower rate than the 4000, and does not reach the inner tines yet. What you are feeling could be an awkward/unique sensation of glass smooth yet pencil like feedback: the surface of the tines directly in contact with paper is 12000grit polished, the inner tines are probably still not polished or polished not enough by the 12000grit.

 

Also, the 4000grit might have created many surfaces, it would take more time for the 12000 grit to smoothen them out.

 

Also, nib smoothing is not mere figure8s on micromesh/grit paper. I don't know why so many videos advocate it.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Figure 8 was an old way "simple".....our passed poster and repairman Ol'Grizz claimed that figure 8's cause baby bottom. So after reading that I stopped using that.

 

While rotating the nib constantly: assuming you are not reshaping the nib.

Tiny circles right and left, squiggles up and down and sideways. (assuming a buff stick...wider circles can be done if using a sheet.) A couple of seconds, then check.

 

Some interesting facts I didn't know in this thread.

[jekostas]

Figure 8 was an old way "simple".....our passed poster and repairman Ol'Grizz claimed that figure 8's cause baby bottom. So after reading that I stopped using that.

 

 

This is mostly an issue if you press down on the pen while smoothing it, as this spreads the tines slightly and exposes the inner tipping surfaces to the abrasive. That said, you shouldn't be using any pressure when smoothing a nib to begin with.

Edited June 12, 2018 by jekostas

[Bo Bo Olson]

No reason to use a figure 8, when tiny circles and squiggles do just as well, and one don't risk baby bottom.

 

Some folks are use to nails, and no pressure =2X tine spread in a semi-flex. Ham fisted no pressure is pressure.

Actually learning to write or even smooth nib with no pressure is learned behavior.

[Uncial]

Jekostas, I might be reading you incorrectly, but are you saying it's not a good idea to solely use the 12000 grit and then mylar for polishing? I'm not sure if you saying this in relation to the use of 4000 grit first.

 

I usually write a word on the grit. If the nib only needs a tiny little bit of attention, usually a letter at a time, testing each time. But then, I'm usually only looking to take out a pencil-like feed back rather than actually regrinding a poor tipping, so I'm really only looking to smooth out the nib a touch.

[jekostas]

Jekostas, I might be reading you incorrectly, but are you saying it's not a good idea to solely use the 12000 grit and then mylar for polishing? I'm not sure if you saying this in relation to the use of 4000 grit first.

 

I usually write a word on the grit. If the nib only needs a tiny little bit of attention, usually a letter at a time, testing each time. But then, I'm usually only looking to take out a pencil-like feed back rather than actually regrinding a poor tipping, so I'm really only looking to smooth out the nib a touch.

 

Not at all. What I'm saying is that if you start with a low grit, you need to work your way through the higher grits instead of skipping steps.

 

For example, since the OP started with 4000 grit, they should have next smoothed their nib using 6000 and then 8000 grit Micromesh before they used 12000 grit. Similarly, if you start with 6000 grit, you need to do the 8000 grit step before moving on to 12000 grit.

 

If all you want to do is quite minor smoothing, it's perfectly fine to start at 12000 grit and then switch to mylar paper etc.

[minddance]

Dear OP, if the nibs on your experiment pens are already smooth, you couldn't smoothen it more with normal techniques and without constant proper magnification. Any work with the mylar paper or micromesh or any form of abrasive would certainly take away tipping material and create edges/facets/ridges - very quickly too. Even at 12000grit, the hand would feel a difference very quickly. You would find the line gets broader or finer, depending on your smoothing technique.

 

My curiosity is piqued: why did you decide on a 4000grit? Were you trying to reshape the nib? Why not a 10000grit or 8000 or 12000?

 

While I am open to experimentation on cheap problematic pens, I would not advise anyone to use abrasives on pens at all.

 

Faceted and feedbacky are very easy, but round is difficult. Some people do not enjoy round kugel nibs but the round I am referring to is not merely kugel (ball) shape. Even in nibs that are not ball shaped, there should be a certain roundness somewhere. Even in a crisp Italic or stub, there has to be a roundness (to different extent) somewhere. If this roundness is broken, the writing angles are limited and sweet spot changed.

 

 

A small change is a big change. I don't like it when youtube videos try to educate the viewers to draw figure 8s and use abrasives on nibs like nobody's business.

 

Most of the time, it is the pen vendors who are advocating smoothing with a micromesh. You bought a pen from them, you find it scratchy, what do you do? You take out a loupe, check for misalignment. This is correct. If it is STILL scratchy, you take out that micromesh and 'smooth' it. This IS very wrong. The micromesh instructions are more irresponsible than helpful. Read: watch the videos and fix it yourself.

 

Checking for alignment is fine. If it still scratches, return the pen for exchange or refund. DO NOT USE ABRASIVES at this point.

Edited June 14, 2018 by minddance

[jekostas]

I think that may be a little extreme. There's really nothing wrong with smoothing nibs using abrasive materials provided it's done properly, and it is an important part of tuning nibs to write properly (or at least according to one's preferences).

 

There are issues, of course, the biggest being that it requires a lot of practice. Even if you read every article and watch every video on nib smoothing you can find there's really no other way to learn than trying to smooth a bunch of pens. The joy of the internet is that it's now extremely easy to source inexpensive pens from China or India, and easier to find proper abrasives.

 

The other really big issue is that there's a lot of misleading information and a beginner may not know how to actually judge what's being presented. I've mentioned this before but I can't count the number of times I've seen people recommend smoothing nibs with things like cardboard, brown paper bags, glass tiles, ceramic mugs or even pennies. If you don't know anything about smoothing nibs, how are you supposed to sort through that information?