"wet Noodle" : Variance In Definitions Or Application Of This Term

[Intensity]

Having been reading this forum for a while, I've come to understand that "Wet Noodle" stands for a highly flexible springy nib that's difficult to control in normal writing. It is so easily flexible, that one has to make an effort to NOT flex it by writing with a very light hand. Is this correct? I have some "wet noodle" dip pen nibs by that definition and like them a lot.

 

It does not simply refer to the fact that the pen is flexible and the tines can spread a great deal from the original baseline width.

 

I got a couple of pens recently from a reputable vendor who lists the pens as "wet noodle", but they require a good amount of effort to spread the tines--it's quite easy to write in the original nib width without spreading the tines. They might spread very slightly, but in order to truly get line variation, I must make an effort to press on the nib, and a lot of effort to spread the tines for very significant variation (like say F to BB requires a lot of pressure, and the feed does not always keep up with the spread).

 

I've had one pen that I'd call very flexible, almost wet noodle--it did require a light hand to write in the original width and not much force to flex the nib to a very wide line. I might have called it "wet noodle", I'm just being conservative with the term, as I kept reading that a true wet noodle is really difficult to control, and that one was not "difficult", but did need a light hand and some manageable care to write in even thin line.

 

So what is the consensus: is it correct to label something "wet noodle" if it gives great line variation, or should that be simply called "Flexible"--unless the condition of easy tine spread with almost no effort is met? (or even that it takes effort NOT to spread tines?) I did not want to argue with the vendor, as I like the pens otherwise, but I do feel a bit deceived.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Intensity

[Tweel]

My understanding of the term is about the same as yours. They spread under the weight of the pen and so have to be held off the page, and have lousy snapback, or in other words are "as limp as a wet noodle". They don't seem desirable except as a collector's oddity -- I've never owned one, but have read a few reports over the years from alarmed and unhappy purchasers.

 

In my mind, the term should be reserved for those very few nibs at the far end of a spectrum, and is essentially a pejorative one, not one to be applied as a term of appreciation, or hype, for anything that flexes with less than gorilla effort.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Tweel

[Bo Bo Olson]

I have a system, but for superflex, there is much variation, the more wet noodles you have the more variation you will have. But for a superflex noobie, I think it's helpful.

And no one can come up with a working electric scale system that works .... too many people doing it too many different ways.

 

My system is a system of 1/2's. Each flex set from regular flex to Wet Noodles are @ 1/2 easier to flex than the one above.

(Nails1 X and semi-nails 2 X tine spread when well mashed are not in my system.)

 

One does need a regular flex pen of any kind, a Pelikan 200, '82-97 Pelikan 400, Esterbrook regular flex.....some 50-60-70? Sheaffers had the then normal regular flex nibs also, but you need to ask in the Sheaffer subsection.

 

In the 3 X tine spread set: Of course BB and wider don't quite work 3X. EF-B do.

Regular flex, when well mashed will spread it's tines 3 X a light down stroke.

Semi-flex, half of that.

Maxi-semi-flex half of semi-flex or 1/4th the pressure needed with a regular flex.

These are 3 X max tine spread.....pressing any of the three more will spring the nib...

 

Superflex, is 4, the more common 5-6 and rarely 7 X tine spread. One must have some experience with at least semi-flex to feel where the max is. Does the nib easily spread, does it seem to want to only go 5 X....then it is a 5 X tine spread nib...........read Richard Binder's article on metal fatigue. I call it how to spring your nib.

I have superflex divided into three flex sets. Once I saw quite a lot of pressure variance from an experiment someone made on an electronic scale and it could .... as I did....have divided it into some three sets, with no real dividing lines.

I find the Easy Full Flex nibs to clump together in pressure of tine spread....not so with the still easier to tine spread wet noodle.

 

xxx

What I call Easy Full Flex, takes 1/2 the pressure to spread it's tines to what ever is it's max than a maxi-semi-flex or 1/8th a mashed regular flex. (have 4-5 pens and some 7-8 nibs)

Wet Noodle half of that or 1/16th to max, when compared to a well mashed regular flex....thought I only had 3....but turns out I have perhaps 5. A couple of nibs I thought were Easy Full Flex turned out to be Wet Noodle.

There is more pressure variation in Wet Noodle.....and a Wet Noodle need not be sloppy on return....I would expect those nibs to be pre-sprung, just for your use....as demonstrated in the YouTube or Ebay paper example that indeed the 5 X nib will go 7X.

Mine have nice snapback.

 

One of my 52's a 7X tine spread starts off Easy Full Flex then half way through turns Wet Noodle. The other is not quite so easy fully through but more constant through the tine spread is easier to tine spread than an Easy Full Flex but only goes 5 X.

My Soennecken is the best of those three, a smooth easy tine spread to 7 X.

My Fendomatic is a smooth 5 X wet noodle.

 

 

Weak Kneed Wet Noodle.....a term invented by John Swoboda(sp) the nib grinder from England. I don't have any...don't want any. I'd have to learn to write if I got un-lucky and ended up with one.

 

I have dip pen nibs, like the Hunt 99-100-101 that make a wet noodle look uncooked. Many others of 'middling' tine spread are easier than a wet noodle also.

[AAAndrew]

Flex is really made up of three components: how wide the tines open without damaging the nib, the pressure required to open the tines, and the snap of the tines to come back together as you release the pressure.

 

The first two are dependent upon the physical characteristics of the pen including material, thinness, and shape, as well as modifications like slits, cut-outs, and grinding. The snap of a nib is predominantly based upon the material from which the nib is made. With all things being equal, steel will always have better spring than gold.

 

When writing naturally, you want medium spread, light to medium pressure, and fast snap, though you can put up with medium snap. Huge spread, or too light of a touch makes it difficult to write with any speed or fluidity. It is quite tiring as so much muscle control is needed your hand gets tired quickly. Try writing a whole letter with a Hunt 101 and see how you feel afterwards. It’s like painting the walls of a room with that small brush in your child’s watercolor set.

 

And if you try and write a whole letter with one of the modern “flex” nibs that require so much pressure to spread the tines, you’ll also be tired, and feel like you dug a well with a hand trowel. The pressure you should need to flex the nib should be equal to, or less than what is needed to write with a ballpoint pen. That, to me, is medium pressure. That’s based on writing with hundreds of different vintage dip nibs meant for everyday writing. Yes, you might get a bit more spread with more pressure, but the nib was not meant to be ridden like that. If you have to press harder than the nib is not really a flex nib.

 

When drawing decorative letters, i.e. calligraphy, that is when you need greater spread, and easier opening, but you still need the fastest snap. Slower snap can be tolerated for regular writing, but calligraphy requires fast reaction to have the best control over the shapes of the letters. You can deal with the slowness needed to control the wide spread and soft touch because you’re really drawing letters, not writing them.

 

A pen that has wide spread, super light touch and slower snap is good for neither of the main uses of a flexible nib. If that is a “wet noodle” then you’re welcome to them.

 

If you just want to write in your journal or write letters, then medium flex and fast snap is a good way to go. Too much modulation in line is also hard to read unless your letters are big. Big spread is only useful if you’re writing larger letters.

 

And I haven’t even touched on “softness” in a nib, or the importance of thin hairlines. But that’s for another time.

[Intensity]

Thanks everyone!

 

I agree that generally Wet Noodle is not particularly desirable, it was just more of a tool I was getting for specific purposes, but I'm pretty sure what I have instead is vintage "flex", and not even a softer kind. I don't know how that could possibly called "Wet Noodle", unless it appears that the term was simply used to attract attention of people who don't know any better and think that a wide range of line variation means wet noodle (rather than simply flexible with a wide range of variation).

[Bo Bo Olson]

Andrew is always well worth listening too.

 

I just loved his discourse on snapback.

 

I don't do much drawing of letters with my Superflex nibs, just scribble.

I do have a dust rusted shut, Italic Calligraphy book, that teaches how to draw letters, and that was helpful the first time I tried drawing letters with a wet noodle.....or dip pen nib.

The Hunt 99-100-101, will flex in the cup here in Germany, with a medium strong earthquake in California.

 

Intensity, you could have 'just' a superflex nib.....if it's tines spread easily 4, or 5-6 X.

I having a hand full of the Easy Full Flex, nibs and pens, see a difference between that and my Wet Noodles, do to a pressure to tine spread difference that is there..............if one has a couple of them and a real Wet Noodle.

 

It could be the seller don't know the difference between Superflex and Wet Noodle...which is in that flex set. Besides which....Wet Noodle sells better than knowing and saying Superflex; Easy Full Flex tine pressure set.

Could be the term Easy Full Flex is unknown to the seller, to him if the tines spread wide....it is a Wet Noodle.

 

You can write regular with a wet noodle....if you don't go looking for fancy....

I do all the time, but am only scribbling along, not trying something fancy.

 

 

With either of my 7 X tine spread Wet Noodles, I really have to sweat to make my hand light enough to write XXF, have to think to make it write EF....so mostly scribble in F with line variation out to M.....with out looking for fancy.

With my 5 X Waterman 52 wet noodle, it starts about an F....so I scribble F to M, on the whole.

I never went so OCD on the exact narrowest width my Easy Full Flex pens are. My 100n, EF, my Degussa nibs more EF-F to F....I just scribble with them, but should I want a fancy....like my best fancy letter is a capitol L, I have it with out any to much thought.

I don't know if I enjoy my Easy Full Flex nibs more than my Wet Noodles, but I sure worry about the whole smear a lot less...Good to Better paper, makes a difference....and so does the inks.

 

With any Superflex nib...at least for me, I have to scribble bigger, so the letters don't get swallowed because they are wet nibs....if one hasn't really learned to draw letters so there is the thin line that is wanted by those folks that hang out in the Penmanship subsections, a letter can get closed....so Write Bigger!

 

A good italic stiff nib calligraphy book, will teach you how to draw letters that one can use with a Superflex nib.

 

 

What pens do you have???

 

A question I should have asked at the start and from when are they. The era has much to do with what flex a nib might have.

 

 

Not all '30's and before Waterman nibs are superflex....or not Wet Noodles. In fact some fine poster found info that Waterman was more interested in great tine bend and a 3X tine spread in the '30's....so it could well be most of us are over stressing our Waterman nibs.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[Tweel]

A pen that has wide spread, super light touch and slower snap is good for neither of the main uses of a flexible nib. If that is a “wet noodle” then you’re welcome to them.

 

That's what I understood a genuine "wet noodle" to be.

 

...I'm pretty sure what I have instead is vintage "flex", and not even a softer kind. I don't know how that could possibly called "Wet Noodle", unless it appears that the term was simply used to attract attention of people who don't know any better...

 

Right, that's what I think -- it's become a buzz phrase.

[MercianScribe]

Why would a wet noodle have to have a slower snap? My one definite noodle, which takes just normal writing pressure to open a little way (I.e. just enough to give a little line variation to normal writing), opens more fully with just a little more pressure, and then snaps back with no problem. I can write my approximation of copperplate at about two thirds of the speed for my normal writing. To get the finest of hairlines with it takes a little effort (to avoid any flex), but no more than it takes to control the wider flex range on it.

 

Bottom line: I can use it for normal writing and calligraphy with little effort for either.

Edited May 24, 2018 by MercianScribe

[rwilsonedn]

I believe when the term wet noodle is used by a seller, it is an example of an irregular adjective phrase that changes to agree with the subject: I offer a wet noodle, you are selling a semi-flex nib, he is trying to unload a nail that he has pushed way too hard. Otherwise, I agree with AAAndrew, as usual.

ron

[FarmBoy]

Farmboy has yet to understand the reference to pasta in a description of a pen.

 

Instead of defining wet noodle, lets determine exactly when that wet noodle has just the right bite and chew to be "to the tooth".

[Tweel]

Instead of defining wet noodle, lets determine exactly when that wet noodle has just the right bite and chew to be "to the tooth".

 

Sounds good .

 

And rather than absolute nails, we might have nibs that are plastic wall anchors, which spread when the screws are put to them, then relax when the pressure is off, and molly bolts, which do the former but not the latter.

 

"Noodles" and "nails"... maybe wet nibs could be "naiads".

[AAAndrew]

Sounds good .

 

And rather than absolute nails, we might have nibs that are plastic wall anchors, which spread when the screws are put to them, then relax when the pressure is off, and molly bolts, which do the former but not the latter.

 

"Noodles" and "nails"... maybe wet nibs could be "naiads".

I like! “Naiads”. Very classical.

 

I wouldn’t dare to try and classify levels of flexibility with any level of consistency or confidence, at least in public. My naming skills also tend more towards Leonard of Quirm rather than Lineus.

 

I have a rough rating system in the inventory of my collection of dip pens, but it’s more a comparative raring than anything absolute and empirical. It ranges from “super-flex” to “very flexible, “flex,” “semi-flex,” “firm-flex,” “firm,” “inflexible,” and “manifold.” I’m sure my rating can vary depending on my mood that day, so I always take it as a rough indicator rather than a true description.

 

The last two are based on specific pens: the Esterbrook Inflexible, and the nibs by various manufacturers which are all called “manifold.l Even the Inflexible has some measurable flex, but the manifold nibs are usually about as flexible as a modern “nail” fountain pen nib.

 

I know some very smart people have tried to measure and categorize flexibility. I’m not sure I’ve seen a successful one. But it’s an interesting exercise. There are just so many variables that go into the writing experience that measuring only tine spread, while something that is at least measurable, just doesn’t tell me enough.

[AAAndrew]

I was playing around with some of the nibs in my traveling kit and thought I'd post them here so that there's a reference for what I consider flex vs. semi-flex, etc... It's hard to really get the difference because several of these look very similar in their output, but one I may refer to as "firm" while another might be "firm-flex" yet yield a very similar line. I think the difference is the ease of flex.

 

As you can see with the so-called Inflexible pen, it still yields a fairly modulated line. But the pen is very stiff. Now, I'll not put much pressure on it, so that's not to say you have to press hard, but the pen has a "stiff action" as they used to say. But because it has a turned-up tip, it writes much more smoothly than it if was a sharp point. So, the writing experience is unique to that pen: stiff with some flex and smooth writing. And because it's a big nib, it also feels different to write with than a similar pen, the 555 Accountant, which is also stiff with some flex and smooth writing (despite not having a turned-up tip).

 

Anyway. Here are some scribbles. Nothing fancy, just playing around, but you can see the very wide range from very things to very thicks you can get with a standard steel dip nib.

 

 

 

 

 

[sidthecat]

I have a small number of pens that meet the W. N. definition, but they’re fountain pens fitted with old dip nibs, which are more flexible than anything designed for a fountain pen. The difference is obvious when you handle the pens: I imagine that fountain pens reflect a large change in handwriting style that happened in the 20th Century. Writing became more efficient and less beautiful, and the nibs became sturdier and less flexible as a result.

[FarmBoy]

In the pictures above how do we judge the force required to obtain the observed deflection?

 

In general I believe you need to express deflection as a function of applied force. Once done you can determine ranges by which to classify nibs.

 

If the resulting force/yield curve has a slope near 0 (horizontal line) then it is rigid. As the slope increases (more yield for less applied force) toward infinity you begin to describe flexible.

For a more complete description you need to quantify the restoring force needed to return to the resting state and the degree of rebound. Here a rebound of 0 would mean you bent it and will not return to beginning 'zero' deflection case. A rebound near unity would indicate a truly flexible nib.

Including this in the model gives you an opportunity to describe not just a line but instead a surface, unfortunately to collect the full data set you would need to destroy a nib.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Well, Andrew has given me lots to think about.....again.

By the way Andrew.....for 'nothing fancy' you have a fine handwriting.

.... .....then finally :eureka:Dip pens. Sometimes I'm a tad slow.

 

It is the first time I've seen the writing of the Esterbrook, Mitchel, Gillot, and the Eagle nibs.

I do have a 144 pen box of assorted Esterbrook nibs................that NOW I really have to take a look at. Now that Andrew has given me the primer on Esterbrook nibs, I can have an idea of what my nibs can do.

 

My most flexible nibs by far are single Hunt 99-100-101 nibs.

Not counting that box of Esterbrooks, I only have some 30-40 dip pens.....using the old term...pen, instead of nib. Outside the Hunt nibs, none are .

 

If I didn't have those Hunt nibs I'd been more impressed with a few other nibs. I have a Soennecken Bonn nib, that when compared to my Soennecken wet noodle fountain pen, makes that fountain pen nib look uncooked; yet it is only middle of the pack.

 

 

Those are all dip pens that Andrew showed us. So, his descriptions of the way he rates them for flex...and the amount of flex he gets out of them.....are dip pen nib ratings and very very good.

 

I think that Andrew's post should be pinned, in it is the first breakdown of flex terminology I've seen for dip pens. Of course I don't hang out in the Penmanship sub sections; that is full of writers and experience ; so I don't know if others have rated their pens (nibs).

 

 

I only have some 10 superflex fountain pens, 6 are what I call, Easy Full Flex, 4 are Wet Noodle....and each of the wet noodles is slightly different in flex pressure.*** My Easy Full Flex seem to clump together more. I do have one Easy Full Flex, that is closer to wet noodle in pressure than the others, but not quite a wet noodle to my rough definition of halves. There is variation in Superflex.

 

***Two of my wet noodles are the 'normal' 5 - 6X, 2 are 7X; yet they too are different. Having read Richard Binders article on metal fatigue, strive to stay under max tine spread.

 

Andrew, do you know when Eagle nibs started. I think you said something about that before. I don't want to throw in a 1900 nib, in an 1881 scene.

I had used the '94-95 Montgomery Ward (missing the nibs) and Sears and Robuck 1900&1902 for all sorts of things no longer in use and much of my nibs in my western.

 

That the Telegraphers had their own nib, is something I have to go back and change. Telegraphers were the computer geeks of the day.....and important in their time.

[Stompie]

 

The Hunt 99-100-101, will flex in the cup here in Germany, with a medium strong earthquake in California.

 

 

[AAAndrew]

Farm Boy touches upon some of the difficulties of quantifying and measuring “flex.” You’d have to destroy a nib to fully measure it. I have also written numerous times about how spread of tines is only one aspect of the overall action of a pen that people call “flex.”

 

One additional point I’d make for someone considering a flexible nib, is the size of writing. A nib that opens up wide is useful if you write large. A wide modulation in line makes small writing nearly un-readable. If you look at the Hunt 56 above, it’s rather cramped writing and I was keeping it somewhat constrained. Most of the others, including the Inflexible, have sufficient modulation to make normal-sized writing interesting. In addition to maximum writing thickness, it’s also the degree of variation from hairline to max writing width. I suspect why most fountain pen users look for extreme width is because most fountain pens’ hairlines (the thinnest line it can write) is so thick. They’re looking for that maximum contrast. I would suggest taking a pen with modest flex and making it an extra fine will serve better than a fine nib and big flex.

 

 

As for Eagle,

 

American Stationer, May 21, 1891, page 1087

 

"The 'Eagle' Steel Pens."

The Eagle Pencil Company, which has been so long before the public as a manufacturer of pencils, penholders, fountain pens, &c., has now added to its establishment a steel pen department and has placed on the market a line of its new goods. The company's pencil factory is in East Fourteenth street, New York, and in order that the new department may be possessed of all desirable and necessary facilities a new building has been erected just in rear of the pencil factory. The new structure faces on East Thirteenth street, and extends from No. 703 to No. 725. In it has been put all of the latest and most improved machinery for the manufacture of pens, and this, with a new process of manufacture, will enable the company to produce a very superior line of wares. As in its pencil factory, the aim will be to turn out only thoroughly reliable and satisfactory goods, neither labor nor expense being spared to get as near perfection as it is possible for human skill to attain. There are presented on this page illustrations of a dozen styles which the company has already placed before the trade. Other styles will follow as rapidly as they may be required, and it will be the constant aim of the manufacturer in this new filed to furnish pens which will meet the approval fo the most exacting penman. Under the illustration of each pen will be found the figure and number by which it is known, E10 being a large falcon; E20, broad stub; E30, small falcon; E40, bank; E50, firm; E60, small stub; E70, medium falcon; E80, commercial; E90, perfection; E100, small elastic; E110, large stub and E120, small, extra fine."

 

In 1881, for steel pens, there was Esterbrook, Washington Medallion, Turner & Harrison, and a few examples of Harrison & Bradford still being sold. Miller Brothers bought out Bradford in 1882 and started their pen making then. And of course Gilott was the biggest British maker in the US, but Perry, William and John Mitchell (two different makers), were being sold here, and by that time Josiah Mason was already making ones under his own name. I wouldn’t bother with the French as their presence in the US market was very small.

 

Someone in 1881 could also be using a pen branded wih the name of a local stationer, as the jobbing houses and custom imprints were already big business by then. Western Union, for example, had their own pens made by one of these manufacturers with “Western Union” on it.

[Uncial]

I have a Waterman 52 which I would describe as a 'wet noodle' which does indeed feel like a limp bit of pasta. Its spring back is almost non existent and it requires a huge degree of control - not something I could sustain for a whole page; or probably even a whole paragraph. It's not at all practical as a regular use pen because it is so wet (and therefore requires very specific paper types), takes ages to dry and rinses through ink at an incredible rate. It's fun to play with now and again, but I couldn't exactly recommend it. As a comparison, the nib has much less spring back than the Blue Pumpkin dip nib.

 

So many people chase 'flex' and if you are looking for true 'wet noodle' (if such a thing can be classified at all) you usually end up paying through the nose for it. Most people I know who have experience of hem are deeply disappointed by them because they are simply never as good or effective as dip nibs. What I find truly annoying is seeing vintage pens (especially Swann/Mabie Todd's for some reason) being labelled repeatedly as 'wet noodles' on ebay. Frankly I consider it to be theft. Firstly, it is most likely a lie and secondly (and most deceptively) it is a way for sellers to double or triple the sale price of their pen. Modern pen manufacturers play the game too. They slap on the label 'flexible' and hike up the price. Some of them might pass for semi-flex, but if I were to be brutally honest I would much rather they classified their pens as 'soft'. The worst culprit I have ever come across has to be Aurora, whose understanding of the word 'flexible' is quite honestly a joke. There are only two manufacturers I am aware of who have come close to 'flexible' nibs: Omas' 'extra-flessibile' (which is a soft nib, probably could be described as semi-flex, but is incredibly easy to spring), and Pilot 823's modified FA nib which is a semi-flex in my book that probably approaches flexible (I really like this one).

 

AAndrew is right though, and I really should have taken on his advice a long, long time ago. If you are looking for flex, get a holder and some dip nibs. No fountain pen will ever come close. The dip option is also a heck of a lot cheaper.

[mitto]

Interesting and informative read. Thanks to everyone who participated in the discussion.