Chemical Conundrum: Iron Gall Ink With Pdag Nibs?

[DerTiefster]

Is it well-known whether the Palladium Silver based nibs of the (50s?) are iron gall ink resistant? I've been seeing folks modifying modern steel nibs (stainless grades) for flex, and also folks installing dip nibs into fountain pens. The dip nibs are not long-lasting due to corrosion, and I think that even stainless steels may be affected by aggressive inks.

 

I am unsure of the elasticity of PdAg alloys such as Wearever and Shaeffer used, although the Imperial cylindrical geometry nibs would seem poor candidates for flex mods. But it seems that this might not be a silly thing to try.

[Pterodactylus]

There are no aggressive inks on the market which will eat your nib.

 

All modern inks are save and will not corrode any nib, no matter if they contain an iron gall component or not (except non stainless steel dip nibs, but this is obvious).

 

Some manufacturers points out that their inks are ph neutral, but this does not matter (I see this as a marketing gag), it's no problem for stainless steel and for sure it's no problem for precious nib metals/alloys.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Pterodactylus

[jabberwock11]

The acidity of the ink is advertised for archival purposes, it has more to do with its effects on paper than on the nib. Generally speaking, most iron gall inks will slowly eat into the feed and any cellulose that it comes into contact with. Iron gall inks seem to be fine where animal based fibers such as true vellum and true parchment (not to be confused with paper made to mimic the look of these writing surfaces) are concerned, but love to eat away at regular paper. Ask any archivist about true iron gall inks and they will confirm this.

 

There are some "iron gall" inks formulated specifically for fountain pens, these are considered mostly safe, but do require you to clean your pen more frequently. These are still fairly acidic and can still cause problems in the long run with cellulose based fibers, such as paper.

 

I don't know much about how true iron gall inks interact with stainless steel fountain pen nibs, but these inks will kill dip pen nibs in a not too long period of time. Dip pen nibs tend to be straight steel or lightly plated, and are easily corroded and destroyed. I have personally watched iron gall ink help to kill a brand new nib in the space of a single day of heavy use. When using iron gall inks with dip pen nibs as long as you clean them thoroughly they will be OK in the short term.

 

The true dangers in using iron gall inks are the effects that they have on paper, feeds, and barrels/converters. The effects on the nib would probably be a distant second concern, especially when using iron gall inks formulated for use in fountain pens. That is not to say that these inks will not affect FP nibs. Iron gall inks may effect stainless steel or palladium silver nibs just as harshly as they do dip pen nibs, but the anecdotal evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

 

As to whether or not palladium silver is more resistant to corrosion or the effects of iron gall inks than a standard stainless steel nib, I could not say. I am sure that someone with more chemical and metallurgical knowledge will be along sooner or later to answer this question with more authority.

Edited October 18, 2015 by jabberwock11

[DerTiefster]

Replies so far are gratefully acknowledged. I was musing over the Ease My Flex mod to the Ahab nib and comparing reports against other experiences posted by folks who mount dip nibs into their fountain pens. I believed I'd read that the Ahab nib was stainless but shared at some level the dip nib vulnerability to corrosion. However likely it is that this last idea may have been of my own imagining, it made me wonder whether the Wearever PdAg nibs might be a good starting point for a corrosion-resistant and non-gold flex pen mod. And this led to my wondering about elasticity of the alloy. As yet, I've never actually used any PdAg nib.

 

Thanks for the info about iron gall inks and which issues are relevant in these modern times. I am pen n00b, but learning.

Edited October 18, 2015 by DerTiefster

[Pterodactylus]

Take Pelikan 4001 ink, which we (and I think there is a broad consens) consider as "THE SAVE INK" since many decades.

 

PH Value:

Royal Blue: 2,75

Blue Black 2,75

Black 8,5

 

They eat nothing, can be kept in pens many years without any maintenance.

 

Personally I kept iron gall ink for several years in pens without any negative effect.

No cleaning no flushing performed.

 

E.g.

Rohrer & Klingner Scabiosa, kept in a Pelikan 100N 2,5 years recently, no flushing no cleaning just refilling.

Neither any residue observed, nor any damage or change noticable at this pen (but of course a gold alloy will never show any change).

Same is true for Rohrer & Klingner Salix.

 

ESS Registrars ink, also a great ink.

With this ink you might notice some residue over time, but nothing which can´t be cleaned easily.

 

ESS sits in this EMF modified steel nib Serwex over 2 years, no flushing no cleaning, just refilling.

 

 

Not a trace of corrosion (hey guys its stainless steel, there will be never corrosion even on the edges where I changed the nib geometry).

Only some residue which can be easily cleaned from it.

 

 

Look at all the vintage pens, in the good old times iron gall ink was very common, and the acidity of the former iron gall inks was much higher than the modern ones.

If iron gall ink would destroy pens, we would not have that many vintage pens in excellent condition.

[jabberwock11]

While stainless steel is more resistant to corrosion, stainless steel can and does corrode, ask any straight razor user (such as myself). There are plenty of pen and razor restorers who will happily show you the pitting and corrosion caused by prolonged moisture in contact with stainless steel. A quick search will result in plenty of articles about restoring both pens and razors and the things which got them to the point where they required restoring. While carbon steel is more prone to corrosion, stainless steel is not immune.

 

Iron gall inks are establish to be good at eating both cellulose and metal, again a quick internet search will come up with plenty of articles from archivists and restorers who talk about this very thing. While certain "iron gall" inks, such as registrar's ink, have been formulated to be safer for fountain pen use, they are still not completely without their issues. These FP friendly iron gall inks are also not true iron gall ink.

 

Vintage fountain pens did exist along side iron gall inks, but they became popular as iron gall inks faded from common use. A part of the reason that they faded from common use were the issues that they caused with ink sacs, feeds, and paper (especially cheaper paper). One of the reasons that many older pens have ink sacks that have dissolved and feeds that have corroded is that water based inks (especially iron gall inks) help to cause corrosion.

 

Pelikan 4001 is not as acidic as iron gall ink, and is also easily washed off. Iron gall etches into paper and cellulose in general, which is why older documents written with it on cellulose based surfaces (such as paper) are full of etchings where the words once were. Archivists, pen enthusiasts, and restorers have long known that iron gall inks are to be treated carefully.

 

I personally use true iron gall inks as well as registrar's ink, and like them both for various uses, but I use them fully understanding that they can and do cause corrosion and will eventually eat through the paper that they are written on.

Edited October 18, 2015 by jabberwock11

[DerTiefster]

wow. I had only thought that "iron gall ink" was equivalent to "registrar's ink" as an archival material. I am shown (once again) to be a simpleton. But it's a good day when I learn something. Thanks. And it was exactly the work-hardened surfaces which were ground in the EMF mod which had concerned me. Creation of stress enhanced points via corrosion might be followed by fatigue fracture propagation and result in nib failure if serious enough.

 

I'm also glad it doesn't appear useful to hunt down some old Wearever PdAg nibs.

 

[changed EYF to EMF]

Edited October 18, 2015 by DerTiefster

[jabberwock11]

It might not be worth it to find a palladium silver nib for exclusive use with iron gall or registrar's ink, but I would still be curious to see if palladium silver nibs are more resistant to corrosion than modern stainless steel nibs.

[DerTiefster]

I'd considered simply dropping a nib into a bottle of ink and watching what happened. Maybe a sample vial. I had my eye on such a nib.

[jabberwock11]

That would be an interesting long term experiment, but without the flexing and subtle strain put on a nib by regular use I doubt that you would see much happen in the short term. The feeds and barrels/converters (especially cellulose based barrels) are the bits that show corrosion and degradation first. I could be wrong, maybe constant immersion would be enough to start eating away at a nib...and it would be kind of cool to see a nib slowly die...hmmm, where did that bottle of Coke go? I have evil plans now...

[Pterodactylus]

Jabberwack, a lot of, I've heard, I read, is long known,.....and a lot of unproven statements.

This are well known very old resortiments against the "bad, evil" iron gall inks

 

4001 is less acid than iron gall ink.

Proof this statement.

 

In fact 4001 (at least royal blue and blue black)is quite acid but this is irrelevant, it does not harm pens.

Proven for decades.

 

I know that the old Montblanc IG BlueBlack has about 2.2 (another great ink, luckily I still have a bottle) unfortunately I have no values for other iron gall inks, they are most likely also between 2 and 4.

 

Aha, and 4001 is easily washed off....

True but the same is valid for all iron gall inks I know and have in use.

 

 

They eat feeds .... Interesting

Ebonite, hard rubber and plastics which are used in pens are extremely resistent against most chemical reactions.

Please link a reliable reference to proof your statement.

 

Please don't argue with historic use of iron gall inks, as in former times the production processes did not allow to control the ph value.

And therefore often batches of ink were mixed with way too much acid.

And of course this destroyed paper over centuries,

 

And of course interacts iron gall ink with the cellulose, this is why it is used because this makes it permanent

Show me the holes in sheets of paper where you used iron gall ink please.

 

Regarding sacs, they can be destroyed by many things.

There are some which think Noodlers ph neutral ink is also a good way to dissolve new sacs in a jiffy.

There is no prove, but who knows, there are observations.

Sacs don't live forever, they has to be replaced some time.

I don't think you can link a study which proves that modern iron gall ink shorten a sacs lifespan.

 

Please also show me your corroded stainless steel nibs where you used iron gall ink.

As said, I've exposed cheap steel nibs already a long time to iron gall ink continuously and observed no trace of corrosion. (Despite that I think that the cheap Noodlers and FPR steel nibs use no high quality steel)

 

But assume for a moment that some inks may really be able to corrode steel over time.

Who cares if a cheap steel nib will show some signs of corrosion after decades......

 

 

I don't like such generic statements you made before.

There are only very less really scientific proven facts in it.

Even if there would be some minor effects when you use modern iron gall ink heavily, I really doubt that you will see them during your lifespan.

 

 

But everybody has a choice, if you are scared by the evil iron gall inks, just don't use them.

........but you will miss to use some really great inks.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Pterodactylus

[DerTiefster]

As O.P., I'll mention that I don't fear iron gall inks, especially on hardware designed when they were one of the dominant inks. One of my sons did a water test for some inks we have in house. It was quite interesting. I will do more of that kind of test after acquiring some IG ink(s). I thought I'd read that dip pen nibs (plated carbon steel) had limited lifetimes in contact with [water-based] ink, and wondered whether PdAg nibs would fare well. I was mistaken on corrosive vulnerability of Noodler's Ahab nibs, but this is a good thing. A reshaped Ahab might last decades or more, making a search for PdAg nibs a waste of time. I waste enough time on other things as it is.

[pajaro]

I have been usng iron gall inks since at least as far back as 1970 in a Parker 51, at least 32 years in one Montblanc 144 and at least 25 years in another MB 144. Of course, those pens have 14K nibs. No damage, of course. A steel nibbed Sheaffer school cartridge pen from the 1960s that I have had about 50 years is OK. I have been using it with a converter and MB blue black for some time. I don't think this is an issue unless you make your own ink or venture far away from pen maker's ink brands.

 

This issue of iron gall inks has been discussed before. Because I am 67, I don't care if the nibs fall apart in 10 years or less. I have another couple of hundred pens anyway.

[jabberwock11]

This is the las thing that I will say on this matter, as I feel we have gotten too far off topic (my intent is simply to inform the OP of possible issues with the use of these inks).

 

As I said, the true dangers of using iron gall inks are their effects on paper, feeds, and barrels especially those made from cellulose derivatives. I do use iron gall inks and have for some time, but I do so knowing what problems they can cause.

 

There are plenty of articles on line and in academic publications on this issue, but If you need first hand knowledge beyond what I have personally seen these inks do to feeds and papers: my wife is an archivist and deals with these inks on a weekly basis, papers from even the 60s and 70s are breaking down thanks to relatively modern iron gall inks, machine parts used in presses can be found to be completely corroded by iron gall ink, and I have personally seen a number of pens with iron build up and corrosion.

 

http://irongallink.org/igi_index22a4.html

 

"As early as about 100 years ago the head of the Vatican Library F. Ehrle, worried about the problem of ink damage and warned of the impending destruction of numerous documents and manuscripts. The conference he called in to St. Gall in I898 was the starting point for the systematic and scientific research for an explanation of the causes of this degenerative process. Since then the scientific literature names the following reasons for ink degradation of paper:

the high acidity of some inks which contributes to the hydrolytic splitting of the cellulose;

the efficacy of soluble iron compounds as catalysts for the oxidative decomposition of cellulose."

 

"By far the strongest effect on deterioration has proved to be the radical mechanism catalyzed by iron(II) compounds, even under neutral conditions. The effect of iron(II) compounds was proved to be much stronger than the destructive action of acids."

 

 

http://travelingscriptorium.library.yale.edu/2013/03/21/iron-gall-ink/

 

"Unlike acid hydrolysis, caused by the mobility of sulfuric acid throughout the paper, damage caused by iron-catalyzed oxidation tends to stay close to the inked areas.

Iron gall corrosion has not been a problem limited to paper. During the Middle Ages, iron gall dyes were known to degrade silk and other fibers. In fact, in the late 15th century, the Doge of Venice prohibited dyers of woolen cloth from using all tannins and iron mordants (iron gall black dyes) in the dyeing of textiles."

Edited October 18, 2015 by jabberwock11

[DerTiefster]

I thank all participants here. No posts seemed wildly off-topic and I appreciated the learning experience. I'll even read the linked references.

[Bo Bo Olson]

My early '50's Pelikan and MB instruction papers said clean the pen every three months. They were gold nibs but had ebonite feeds.

 

The way most everyone changes inks every 5th day I wouldn't worry about it much.Even if you are using R&K Salix, just clean the pen ever month or two.

[DerTiefster]

I have just engaged purchase of a pen with aforesaid Wearever (you'd think the FPN autospell would know not to reform that word into Wherever, wouldn't you? but I keep having to change it back) PdAg nib. I'm looking forward to running some ink through it, possibly next weekend. But it won't be IG ink, for as yet I have none. I don't know how it will clean up, either. A learning experience looms ahead. I don't know how thick and intrinsically stiff the tines will be, either.

[Bo Bo Olson]

If your Wearever is a lever action, just put the nib and section underwater in the bathroom sink, load and unload water out of the pen some 20 times.

Change water eventually. sounds long, but only takes two minutes.

 

If a cartridge pen, buy a rubber baby's 'ear' syringe....something you will need for ever, so it is a once in a life time buy. fill with water, shove over the spout and squish it clean....can draw up 'dirty' water a couple of times until it starts looking pale. Change water....takes some minute or so.

 

If you want to be OCD, take a paper towel, put the nib of the pen and pen in it, shake like an old time thermometer, then sit in a coffee cup with the paper towel 8 hours or over night. That soaks up what ever ink is still in the feed.

There 'is always' a touch that hours in a paper towel cures.

 

Actually, in 98% of the cases, you could go to the next ink shortly after you shake it 'dry', and not bother the tone of your new ink.