Hand Fatigue And Positioning.

[dgreenwood116]

Hey guys,

 

I accidentally posted before asking my question, sorry!

 

Anyway, i've been practicing my cursive for awhile now and the two things that bother me are fatigue in the outside palm ( between the pinky and wrist on my right hand) and the consistency of my writing.

 

I've studied the Iampeth webpage, and i've been confused as to what part of your arm is supposed to be touching the desk when you are writing. Currently my outside palm rest on the desk while i'm writing, though this causes for re adjustments and not smooth flowing.

 

Also, the fatigue in my hand i would guess is caused by being to tense and holding the pen to tightly. The pen normally rest right below my pointer finger knuckle and thats when it starts to hurt after awhile. If i relax my grip, my writing becomes sloppy though the fatigue goes away as long as i remember to not tense up!

 

I would appreciate any advice!

 

http://s14.postimg.org/7h46bwa5d/image1.jpg

Edited January 1, 2015 by dgreenwood116

[Ursus]

Exactly where in the hand (which muscles) do you experience the fatigue?

[dgreenwood116]

Exactly where in the hand (which muscles) do you experience the fatigue?

The fatigue comes from the muscle (pictured) in the right hand.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2a6qtrk.png

Edited January 1, 2015 by dgreenwood116

[Ursus]

It seems that you somehow lift your hand using that muscle (musculus abductor digiti minimi) when you are writing. If you try writing without touching the paper, it should go away. Otherwise it would be more of a constant tension.

Whatever the reason, all those muscles can be controlled voluntarily, so it will only be a matter of practise to correct.

People hold their hands in all kinds of ways when writing (just like people use different muscles when they walk) and a little difference in position should not cause too much trouble.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Ursus

[Ursus]

You could try writing with your pinky extended (at least until you stop using it actively). Also you can try to relax your hand before you grap your pen. In order for you to write without getting tired, you must use as little muscle power as possible. We seem to forget how much trouble we had learning how to hold a pen in the first place when we were children, but it takes a lot of work to economize and use as little energy as possible. (Since I began writing in different kinds of ways ten years ago, I have lost my ability to write for 20 hours in a row.) When ever we use to much force, we loose ability to move the hand freely.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Ursus

[dgreenwood116]

Very interesting! It would make sense so that muscle is somehow contributing to my writing when it's touching the paper, therefore making it fatigued. I will try to write without it touching the the desk, should my forearm be touching when i try this?

 

As for the consistency of my writing, just pages and pages of writing the cursive alphabet? Or has anyone had success with drills?

Edited January 1, 2015 by dgreenwood116

[Ursus]

 

Very interesting! It would make sense so that muscle is somehow contributing to my writing when it's touching the paper. I will try to write without it touching the the desk, should my forearm be touching when i try this?

 

As for the consistency of my writing, just pages and pages of writing the cursive alphabet? Or has anyone had success with drills?

Drills are great although not very funny. Big round movements with a lot of wrist and finger movement would soften up the muscles of the hand.

Make sure that you relax your shoulders - so you chair should fit the desk.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Ursus

[Ursus]

There is also the evil kind of exercise: write for five hours until you can't use that muscle at all and it goes into spasms, and then start exercising - which is just a little bit less crazy than giving it a shot of botox. The problem, however, is that tensions have an ugly tendensy to spread all over, and so you have to solve the original problem.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Ursus

[peterg]

When I write only the first knuckle of my last three fingers touches the paper. The rest of my hand hovers over the paper with the pen held at a constant height controlled by the position of the knuckles.

 

Resting you hand on the outside palm would cause pressure and restrict blood flow causing muscle pain. (disclaimer - I have no medical kmowledge).

 

Resting your hand would also increase the tendancy to write in an arc rather than a straight line, hence your comments about 'Currently my outside palm rest on the desk while i'm writing, though this causes for re adjustments and not smooth flowing'.

[dgreenwood116]

There is also the evil kind of exercise: write for five hours until you can't use that muscle at all and it goes into spasms, and then start exercising - which is just a little bit less crazy than giving it a shot of botox. The problem, however, is that tensions have an ugly tendensy to spread all over, and so you have to solve the original problem.

Lol that sounds painful! Shots too!

I really wish i could have had an emphasis on learning to write properly when i was young that way i wouldn't have to overcome years of habit! I had all but forgot how to write in cursive and retaught myself about a year ago!

[dgreenwood116]

When I write only the first knuckle of my last three fingers touches the paper. The rest of my hand hovers over the paper with the pen held at a constant height controlled by the position of the knuckles.

 

Resting you hand on the outside palm would cause pressure and restrict blood flow causing muscle pain. (disclaimer - I have no medical kmowledge).

 

Resting your hand would also increase the tendancy to write in an arc rather than a straight line, hence your comments about 'Currently my outside palm rest on the desk while i'm writing, though this causes for re adjustments and not smooth flowing'.

I've tried writing with my whole arm rather than just my fingers/wrist and that definitely didn't turn out pretty!

 

I am going to have to focus on writing with a "hover hand" lol and see how that improves the fatigue.

[ac12]

A few thoughts

• Use a lighter pen. The Pilot VP is a rather heavy pen. My hand gets tired when writing with a heavy pen. I prefer light pens, under 20 grams and even better under 15g, when doing long writing sessions.
  • To test this out, go to Staples and get a pack of Pilot Varsity disposable fountain pens. These are light pens and should give you an idea if the pens weight is one factor affecting you.
• When you hold the pen, hold it "lightly." As BoBo said, don't make 'bird paste.' In fact this is what gave me hand cramps in college, holding the pen TIGHT. Someone should be able to pluck the pen out of your hand with almost no resistance. Typically the reasons to hold TIGHT are 1) you are writing like you do with a ball pen, and 2) that you are finger writing, and need to hold the pen tight to control the pen. If you write with your arm, you don't have to hold the pen TIGHT.

• Sounds like you are a finger writer. I suggest, learning to write with your arm.
  • In learning to write with your arm, you handwriting will look BAD for a while, until your arm muscles get trained to moving like it should be. So stick it out, and as the muscles get used to writing, your handwriting will improve. Just take it easy. In my case it took about 3 months of daily practice (about 1 hour a day) until I could write with my arm naturally. Don't rush it, as you train your arm, it will take longer to write. Speed comes once your arm muscles know what they have to do. Then, one day, it will suddenly feel easy to do.
  • When you write with your arm. Rest the right heel of your wrist "very lightly" on the paper (or hover over it). You should be able to easily slide your hand on the paper as you write. If you can't slide your hand, you have too much weight on your wrist, lift your forearm and lighten up.
  • I pivot my arm on the muscle on the bottom of your forearm, near the elbow. This allows my hand to move in all directions as a write and to move across the page. At a certain point, I may reposition my arm or the paper, simply because the left to right distance to cover is too much to do without repositioning.
• You need to be careful when reading the Iampeth stuff.
  • Much of the old training material in Iampeth is for dip pen writing, and the method in some of the instructions are for a finger on top hold (index finger at 12 o'clock) with your hand riding on the nails of your last 2 fingers.
  • The hold that I was taught, and which seems to be the current method (and the one that seems to fit the construction of the Pilot VP), rotates the grip so the thumb and index finger are at about 1030 and 230 on the pen and my hand rests on the side of my little finger.

These are 2 very different grips.

Edited January 2, 2015 by ac12

[dgreenwood116]

• you hold the pen, hold it "lightly." As BoBo said, don't make 'bird paste.' In fact this is what gave me hand cramps in college, holding the pen TIGHT. Someone should be able to pluck the pen out of your hand with almost no resistance. Typically the reasons to hold TIGHT are 1) you are writing like you do with a ball pen, and 2) that you are finger writing, and need to hold the pen tight to control the pen. If you write with your arm, you don't have to hold the pen TIGHT.
• Sounds like you are a finger writer. I suggest, learning to write with your arm.
  • In learning to write with your arm, you handwriting will look BAD for a while, until your arm muscles get trained to moving like it should be. So stick it out, and as the muscles get used to writing, your handwriting will improve. Just take it easy. In my case it took about 3 months of daily practice (about 1 hour a day) until I could write with my arm naturally. Don't rush it, as you train your arm, it will take longer to write. Speed comes once your arm muscles know what they have to do. Then, one day, it will suddenly feel easy to do.
  • When you write with your arm. Rest the right heel of your wrist "very lightly" on the paper (or hover over it). You should be able to easily slide your hand on the paper as you write. If you can't slide your hand, you have too much weight on your wrist, lift your forearm and lighten up.
  • I pivot my arm on the muscle on the bottom of your forearm, near the elbow. This allows my hand to move in all directions as a write and to move across the page. At a certain point, I may reposition my arm or the paper, simply because the left to right distance to cover is too much to do without repositioning.

Thank you so much for all the information regarding writing with your whole arm! It is indeed what i want to learn and i just have to be more dedicated to daily practice and whenever i do write periodically, to do so with the whole arm technique.

 

Your bullets answered my questions right when they occurred as i was reading

 

So when writing using the whole arm method, if the nothing but the pen is touching the paper, is that a correct approach to the method?

[dgreenwood116]

Was yours this uncontrolled when first trying to use the whole arm? http://s30.postimg.org/xmcv3jmn5/IMG_0115.jpg

[WaskiSquirrel]

For me, one trick I had to learn was to loosen my grip on the pen. Ideally, someone should be able to easily pluck the pen from your hand as you write. Also, write with your shoulders. I still have a tendency to clutch my pens tightly if I don't remind myself.

[ac12]

Was yours this uncontrolled when first trying to use the whole arm? http://s30.postimg.org/xmcv3jmn5/IMG_0115.jpg

 

No, MUCH worse.

I can read your writing, I could barely read mine, and it was UGLY.

You are already better than I was when I started my handwriting improvement.

Next step is to refine the letter shapes.

 

You can also do some excercises to warm up and learn to control your arm.

One is a series of lower case "e" going all the way across the page, then try lower case "l". The "e" is half line height, the "l" is full line height.

 

The side of my little finger and sometimes the base of my wrist touch and rub on the paper, I cannot float my hand without any height reference which is why I have to touch the side of my little finger to the paper.

So my hand has to be DRY when I write. Damp hand sticks to the paper and I and can't move my hand freely to write. If my hand is damp, I put a piece of paper between my hand and the writing paper, so the buffer paper will slide on the writing paper.

 

As a tip, I use WIDE ruled paper to practice on. This helped me to arm write by giving me more space to write in, than college ruled paper, so I could move my arm. And I tried to use up ALL the vertical space in between the lines. By writing larger than I used to write, I forced myself to use my arm, as I could not write large when I wrote with my fingers. You could also use 2 lines of college ruled paper; 1 line for small lower case letters like "e" and "m", and 2 lines for the tall letters like "k" and "M." I did not do that, because I thought the resultant writing was TOO BIG.

 

I also used a wider nib (M) than I normally used (F), to further force me to write larger and not to inadvertently revert to my prior small writing.

Edited January 2, 2015 by ac12

[dgreenwood116]

Well you're definitely the help i needed to be able to start properly trying this technique and to not question the form while doing so! I'm going to have to keep a strict schedule and practice properly including your tips.

 

I have always read when learning techniques like this that you should try to write bigger as it helps the learning process.

 

Although, once you found your control getting better with the larger letters do you gradually step it down to a smaller scale? Or does the muscle memory come into play and you can write controlled at a smaller size though you learnt by writing on a bigger scale?

[ziptrickhead]

I use to have the same problem with that muscle tightening up when I write for long periods of time. I found that for me it was because of how I was gripping the pen and how I was writing was causing my pinkie and ring fingers to curl up into my palm. That muscle is used for grip strength with the pinky so basically it was like I was making a fist the entire time I was writing. You haven't put up pictures of your hand with a pen, that would probably be the best way to figure out why your hand is cramping up and what you can do to alleviate the problem.

 

I'll use my own grip as an example:

Before

 

After

 

I had to make a conscious effort to make sure my pinkie finger stayed relaxed. Extending it out too much or curling it in too much beyond what my natural finger positions was would cause my hand to cramp up. I also had to move my tripod grip up a bit on the section to compensate for the nib being further away from the paper. Being careful about not having any fingers be tense when writing, keeping a very loose hold on my pen, and moving around the grip on the pen as needed to make contact with the paper versus just cramming my hand downwards and I can basically write for a good amount of time now without my hand being tired.

 

I also use to write with the side of my hand against the paper versus now with my palm facing downward and I still do sometimes (where the nib is at an angle from the paper and the index finger is canted to one side of the section. So long as I keep my hands and fingers all loose, no problems with cramping. I do end up holding the pen halfway up though to compensate for the added height between my pen hold and the paper. Seeing as how you're using a vanishing point, I figure you'll probably be holding the pen at the sides of the clip. When you have a light hold on the pen, it doesn't matter if something is sticking out of the pen (drop in section, or sharp threads) because you won't have enough pressure against the pen for it to really dig into your fingers. I still hold my VP the same way as I've shown above, with my index finger right on top of the clip.

 

In terms of stability, I don't hover hand when I write. I just can't do it without my handwriting looking like a toddler scrabbling with a crayon or something (the caffeine doesn't help out at all either). So now basically the side of my pinkie and the bottom bone of my hand are was stay on the paper. No downward pressure or anything, just the weight of my arm. It gives my hand stability to form letters all the while loose enough to glide over the paper without friction, allowing me to write with my whole arm over just finger writing.

Edited January 2, 2015 by ziptrickhead

[Ursus]

I suggest that you begin relaxing your hand while using simple writing exercises and wait practicing writing normal size letters until you are satisfied with the way you hold the pen and move your hand and arm. Even if you choose to write with free arm and fixed fingers, you will profit from practicing free hand movements. When you can use your hand freely you are relaxing your hand and will also avoid that the muscles in your arm and shoulder become tense. Tensions spread as if shoulders and fingers were tightly connected - which is also a problem for musicians - pianists, violonists, singers etc. alike. The overall posture of the body must be right and relaxed, and the fingers must be relaxed (that is, have a controlled, minimal tension). Getting the shoulder right just might solve the problem with the fingers because it's all interconnected and because it sometimes works to stop focusing on the tension (Sir John E. Gardiner once told that he had tricked singers into reaching a difficult note by telling them that they got the following note wrong; he's a clever guy and great company). Anyway, practicing to write perfect letters with a tension in the hand will be learning things the wrong way. Practicing is also a lot more fun without tensions, even if, to begin with, the result looks like somehing that a little schoolgirl could do better (I certainly know that feeling).

[ac12]

To followup on what zip and Ursus said.

 

I also changed my grip.

I used to have my thumb and 2 fingers all together on the grip, side-by-side.

Now I have my 2 fingers on the grip and my thumb about 1cm back. The following thread is where I got the idea,

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/201146-the-classic-tripod-grip/?hl=%2Btripod+%2Bgrip

For me the new grip made it easier to relax my hand. I found that when I moved my thumb forward, it tensed up my hand, because I had to "push" my thumb forward.

 

It isn't as simple as one thinks it would be.

There area all these little things that affect your writing.