Overpriced

[gautampk]

Everything is overpriced. Businesses exist to drive up the price and then take a slice off the top, it's their raison d'etre.

 

The real question is how much overpricing are you willing to accept, in return for a more exclusive brand image?

[Algester]

well then what can go wrong for a 1XXX USD pen with a steel nib (it has been stated that steel nibs wont feel different from nail like gold nibs)... I mean there could be a person out there who bought that HALDIMANN H9 reduction...

[de_pen_dent]

The real question is how much overpricing are you willing to accept, in return for a more exclusive brand image?

 

Right - cos people only buy MB b/c of brand image. And thus we have reached full circle.

 

I vote that we apply some variant of Godwin's Law when it comes to MB-related discussions.

[gautampk]

 

Right - cos people only buy MB b/c of brand image. And thus we have reached full circle.

 

I vote that we apply some variant of Godwin's Law when it comes to MB-related discussions.

Of course they do. Brand image is the reason anyone buys anything nonessential.

 

Brand image is the reason people choose Apple over Samsung, and brand image is the reason smartphones became commonplace.

 

It's not a bad thing, it's just a fact of life.

[Algester]

Of course they do. Brand image is the reason anyone buys anything nonessential.

 

Brand image is the reason people choose Apple over Samsung, and brand image is the reason smartphones became commonplace.

 

It's not a bad thing, it's just a fact of life.

nah I would say smartphone really became the "hot chic" factor since Nokia failed somewhere down the line... where I do not know... who knew touchscreens were the future when it was invented in CERN, innovation? maybe technology wise people need to innovate. I mean look at blackberry now where are they... I mean what about Motorola the brand inventor of the cellphone where are they now I mean what would Martin Cooper say that his invention came this far at least at the core concept stage

do fountain pen manufacturer's need to innovate? I dunno but if ever up to what extent should they innovate.

Visconti's power filler and that bayonet capping system can be called an innovation... what about design? the use of materials.

why do I buy Pilot V5 RTs is it because of brand image? I dunno all I know it's a very robust pen at least compared to the Pilot G2 and the Pilot G-tech-C4, some cheapo bic stick? ehh... I like my Pilot better

but if a very chic company does make a piston filler if not a C/C pen made out of sapphire glass or better yet diamond glass that I WILL WANT TO SEE

Edited October 1, 2014 by Algester

[gautampk]

nah I would say smartphone really became the "hot chic" factor since Nokia failed somewhere down the line... where I do not know... who knew touchscreens were the future when it was invented in CERN, innovation? maybe technology wise people need to innovate. I mean look at blackberry now where are they... I mean what about Motorola the brand inventor of the cellphone where are they now I mean what would Martin Cooper say that his invention came this far at least at the core concept stage

do fountain pen manufacturer's need to innovate? I dunno but if ever up to what extent should they innovate.

Visconti's power filler and that bayonet capping system can be called an innovation... what about design? the use of materials.

why do I buy Pilot V5 RTs is it because of brand image? I dunno all I know it's a very robust pen at least compared to the Pilot G2 and the Pilot G-tech-C4, some cheapo bic stick? ehh... I like my Pilot better

but if a very chic company does make a piston filler if not a C/C pen made out of sapphire glass or better yet diamond glass that I WILL WANT TO SEE

 

Smartphones became popular because of the marketing machine that is Apple building on its success with the iPod. Before the first iPhone they were very much a niche thing for super-tech savvy businesspeople, and they ran clunky old Windows Mobile.

 

Maybe non-essential is the wrong word. I mean branding is the how people choose between two or more technically similar products. Why would someone choose a Mont Blanc over a Parker or a Sheaffer or a Pelikan? Because they like Mont Blanc. Why do they like Mont Blanc? Because of their brand image. It doesn't have anything to do with the price.

[Algester]

Smartphones became popular because of the marketing machine that is Apple building on its success with the iPod. Before the first iPhone they were very much a niche thing for super-tech savvy businesspeople, and they ran clunky old Windows Mobile.

 

Maybe non-essential is the wrong word. I mean branding is the how people choose between two or more technically similar products. Why would someone choose a Mont Blanc over a Parker or a Sheaffer or a Pelikan? Because they like Mont Blanc. Why do they like Mont Blanc? Because of their brand image. It doesn't have anything to do with the price.

remind me of the days with Sony Ericson and PalmOS hahaha

maybe in the end it really should'nt boil down at the price... but alas... I'm still a person looking at numbers :< maybe I can appreciate if I can find a 149 for 100USD maybe who knows... but I think I like the 220 better if doesnt help it bares some semblance to 2000 form factor

Edited October 1, 2014 by Algester

[seymour]

Hi

 

I enjoyed this topic, but can add a comment from somebody outside US and UK.

 

We have to factor in the postage as well if we buy in the States or England. When I compare prices, I can usually get a pen cheaper in the States than in England, but the postage is usually much more expensive. Our customs also factors in the postage when computing the VAT.

 

The second point is the pleasure of beating the system. I get tremendous satisfaction from buying a first class pen at well below the official price. My MB149 cost me $350 new. It was sold off with a broken nib by a dealer on Ebay. The photograph was horrific and must have frightened off a lot of bidders. I then replaced the nib at my local dealer and had a new MB149. The pen IS a pleasure to use! Similarly I picked up a bordeau MB146 NOS, which was remaindered by a local dealer. He knew the value of the pen but apparently had difficulty selling it off. I didn't complain at the hefty discount.

 

Chaim

[Kataphract]

More seriously, luxury items tend to have a higher mark-up relative to their cost to produce, and certainly their cost to usefulness index is higher. But that's more a matter of expensiveness, rather than strictly being over-priced. Over-priced to me would be relative cost to buy an equivalent product, and even then it's a tricky thing. Ultimately, it's what the market will bear, and if no one is buying it, it's perceived as over-priced whether it is or not.

[Blade Runner]

Hi

 

I enjoyed this topic, but can add a comment from somebody outside US and UK.

 

We have to factor in the postage as well if we buy in the States or England. When I compare prices, I can usually get a pen cheaper in the States than in England, but the postage is usually much more expensive. Our customs also factors in the postage when computing the VAT.

 

The second point is the pleasure of beating the system. I get tremendous satisfaction from buying a first class pen at well below the official price. My MB149 cost me $350 new. It was sold off with a broken nib by a dealer on Ebay. The photograph was horrific and must have frightened off a lot of bidders. I then replaced the nib at my local dealer and had a new MB149. The pen IS a pleasure to use! Similarly I picked up a bordeau MB146 NOS, which was remaindered by a local dealer. He knew the value of the pen but apparently had difficulty selling it off. I didn't complain at the hefty discount.

 

Chaim

$350 USD for a 149 with a broken nib isn't a good deal.

[mrchan]

 

"Unwilling to spend the money" is just such an asinine thing to say.

 

And as for "can't afford it and tend to be bitter because there are others who can", well that statement is just unbelievably crass.

 

I have never felt one iota of bitterness about things that other people can afford and that I cannot. I just don't care about that sort of thing at all. And the really interesting fact about my position is that nobody believes it. I'll leave to you, mrchan, to figure out why. PM me if you want a quick answer.

 

 

 

Finally, I don't refrain from buying an MB 149 because I cannot afford it. I don't buy it because I don't think it is worth the money. I have considered an MB 2xx of some description because I think they are worth the money (to me at least). And I like some of the fancy art pieces - but I wouldn't buy any of them because I cannot afford them. Oh wait, I ought to be bitter about that. Sheesh!

Explain how unwilling to spend money is an asinine thing to say? There are loads of people who can afford it but don't want to and end up condemning those who do. Thus the word UNWILLING (like you seem to be unwilling to spend the money for one despite being able to afford it and are here in this discussion)

 

Explain why then are there so many people knocking MB and the people who buy them? If not jealousy then what? What would drive a person to say about something they can't afford that "if you buy this, you are an idiot?" Imagine an owner of the smallest cheapest car available coming up to you and knocking you for how ostentatious your Toyota Corolla is. If not jealousy then what would possess him to say that? Or an owner of a Jinhao (2-10$) saying how much of an idiot you are for spending money on this expensive Lamy (20-50$depending on where you buy it)?

 

 

 

Of course they do. Brand image is the reason anyone buys anything nonessential.

 

Brand image is the reason people choose Apple over Samsung, and brand image is the reason smartphones became commonplace.

 

It's not a bad thing, it's just a fact of life.

I have used both Android phones(galaxy s3) and tablets (nexus) and also both iphones and ipads. I don't use apply over samsung because of brand image. Everybody has an iphone anyway so its not like its super exclusive. I choose it because of user interphase, apps and everything else that I like about it.

 

So no, it is NOT a fact of life. Your life perhaps.

 

 

Smartphones became popular because of the marketing machine that is Apple building on its success with the iPod. Before the first iPhone they were very much a niche thing for super-tech savvy businesspeople, and they ran clunky old Windows Mobile.

 

Maybe non-essential is the wrong word. I mean branding is the how people choose between two or more technically similar products. Why would someone choose a Mont Blanc over a Parker or a Sheaffer or a Pelikan? Because they like Mont Blanc. Why do they like Mont Blanc? Because of their brand image. It doesn't have anything to do with the price.

I choose MB because the newer Parkers are pieces of C R A P. It has nothing to do with brand image. I like MB pens for what they look like and their awesome nibs, not what they represent. Nobody ever recognises them anyway.

[Medsen Fey]

Wow

Gee willikers, folks are getting testy and it looks like another thread headed for lockdown. Unfortunate.

 

As for me, overpriced means I paid more than I can sell it for, and I do have a couple of those. My Montblancs are not among them as I bought them used, and could easily get my money out of them because resale values are pretty strong with MB. My 146s are not made of "precious plastic." I chose sterling silver. They'll probably get handed down when I'm gone because I have no plans to sell them. I find they write very nicely, and are of excellent quality, and they make me feel like I got a bargain; all good things. They kill germs too.

 

So for those who think I'm foolish for paying hundreds of dollars for a pen, you are entitled to your opinion. I am still happy.

 

Those of you who would begrudge me the opportunity to spend my money as I see fit - shame on you!

 

Those of you who think I'm a cheapskate for buying used - you're right. However, I still enjoy the same writing pleasure as those who have spent more than twice as much.

 

So I'm going to go write something to remind myself to try to avoid being judgemrntal about someine else's pastime.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Medsen Fey

[gautampk]

I have used both Android phones(galaxy s3) and tablets (nexus) and also both iphones and ipads. I don't use apply over samsung because of brand image. Everybody has an iphone anyway so its not like its super exclusive. I choose it because of user interphase, apps and everything else that I like about it.

 

So no, it is NOT a fact of life. Your life perhaps.

 

I choose MB because the newer Parkers are pieces of C R A P. It has nothing to do with brand image. I like MB pens for what they look like and their awesome nibs, not what they represent. Nobody ever recognises them anyway.

 

Whoever said anything about exclusivity? Certainly not me.

 

I have also used Android phones and tablets as well as iOS ones. I prefer Android. Why? Because I like Google's brand more than Apple's. Certainly, I use an iPad mini for the few apps not available on Android, so that's a utility that doesn't have much to do with brand image; but, the reason I use a HTC over an iPhone? The brand image of Android. "Everything else you like about it" is exactly what I'm referring to. It's all down to brand image.

 

As for MB, fine, whatever. You can continue to remain in denial that you like MBs because of their brand image, in exactly the same way that I like Parkers because of their brand image. You've jumped to the conclusion that by brand image I mean exclusivity and am implying that you are snobbish. I am not. Brand image goes much, much further than that. You like the design of the MB? Why? What makes this specific black cigar shaped classically styled pen different from every other black cigar shaped classically styled pen? Brand image is what makes it different.

 

The image is everything from the price, to the design, to the specific choice of trim, to the carat of the gold plating, to the "story" behind the pen, to the advertising.

[Cryptos]

mrchan wrote:

 

Explain how unwilling to spend money is an asinine thing to say? There are loads of people who can afford it but don't want to and end up condemning those who do. Thus the word UNWILLING (like you seem to be unwilling to spend the money for one despite being able to afford it and are here in this discussion)

 

Explain why then are there so many people knocking MB and the people who buy them? If not jealousy then what? What would drive a person to say about something they can't afford that "if you buy this, you are an idiot?" Imagine an owner of the smallest cheapest car available coming up to you and knocking you for how ostentatious your Toyota Corolla is. If not jealousy then what would possess him to say that? Or an owner of a Jinhao (2-10$) saying how much of an idiot you are for spending money on this expensive Lamy (20-50$depending on where you buy it)?

 

1. Because you use the phrase "unwilling to spend the money" in a pejorative way. As if the only reason to be unwilling is because someone has an agenda against those who do make such purchases.

 

2. There are many things that I 'knock', for a number of reasons. Jealousy or envy is not one of those reasons. And I didn't say "if you buy this, you are an idiot". That is you simply projecting what you want to hear. If I had a small cheap car and you had a Bentley and I knocked you for the ostentation, yes you may get peeved. However, my criticism may be based around pragmatism - i.e.both cars get from A to B, why spend more - and not any of the emotional stuff that you are again trying to project onto others.

 

Based around all the arguments you put forward, mrchan, I can only concluded that you must live your life in a seething sea of intense envy (be a good name for a green ink I daresay!).

 

I mentioned earlier that nobody believes me when I say I am not envious of people who have things that I cannot afford. The reason why is that they cannot conceive of the notion of not being jealous. If they are, so must I, in essence.

 

IMPORTANT BIT

 

Unlike a lot of people I do not have hang-ups about not having things. I am comfortable (mostly, as I am only human!) with the transient nature of life. Things will come my way or they won't. If they do it will not be permanent. I will enjoy them when I have them, and I will enjoy the memory of having had them, but I will not mourn or bemoan their passing out of my hands.

 

Sadly, most people (a generalisation, I know) are locked into the cycle of desire and acquisition. The problem with this is the acquisition rarely if ever satisfies the desire. Think about it, at least a little bit.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Cryptos

[WaskiSquirrel]

Overpriced pens would be ones which are so high priced that people are unwilling to pay for them. It's not overpriced if people are willing to pay for it.

 

I don't know why these discussions turn personal or emotional. They're just pens. Do my choices about pens matter to anyone but me? Do other peoples' choices matter to me?

 

The only person's behavior I can control is my own. I focus on my own choices.

[Cryptos]

It becomes personal when people start assigning other values to the cost of the pen. Like "I have an MB (I know, I know) because I deserve it.". "People who don't have/cannot afford/are unwilling to pay for an expensive thing, must be low level in some way".

 

Part of my opinion is centred around the simple fact that I am old-school English.

 

And besides which it is often difficult to resist a robust debate!

[mrchan]

 

Whoever said anything about exclusivity? Certainly not me.

 

I have also used Android phones and tablets as well as iOS ones. I prefer Android. Why? Because I like Google's brand more than Apple's. Certainly, I use an iPad mini for the few apps not available on Android, so that's a utility that doesn't have much to do with brand image; but, the reason I use a HTC over an iPhone? The brand image of Android. "Everything else you like about it" is exactly what I'm referring to. It's all down to brand image.

 

As for MB, fine, whatever. You can continue to remain in denial that you like MBs because of their brand image, in exactly the same way that I like Parkers because of their brand image. You've jumped to the conclusion that by brand image I mean exclusivity and am implying that you are snobbish. I am not. Brand image goes much, much further than that. You like the design of the MB? Why? What makes this specific black cigar shaped classically styled pen different from every other black cigar shaped classically styled pen? Brand image is what makes it different.

 

The image is everything from the price, to the design, to the specific choice of trim, to the carat of the gold plating, to the "story" behind the pen, to the advertising.

First of all, MB has more than just cigar shaped pens. Their Writer's Editions and numerous other lines are all designed differently, and they always have differently designed nibs as well which makes it so much more interesting. If you put a collection of pens that are NOT branded with loads of interesting designs and nibs (MB), versus another non-branded collection but with other same designed nibs/look (Pelikan, Parker, whatever), I will definitely go for the former without doubt despite NOT knowing the brand. I don't even collect, the fact that I only buy what I like means that I am not brand conscious. I have quite a few OTHER non-MB too.

 

The term brand image itself implies snobbishness IMHO. You can't really be snobbish with MB when nobody around you even recognises the brand in 95% of the time. I've worn my pen for more than 3 years and only ever ONE person recognised it was a MB, and I have moved and worked in different locations in the city and suburbs as well. Yes, ONE. How can you be snobbish when there isn't anybody to snob who even understands?

[mrchan]

mrchan wrote:

 

1. Because you use the phrase "unwilling to spend the money" in a pejorative way. As if the only reason to be unwilling is because someone has an agenda against those who do make such purchases.

 

2. There are many things that I 'knock', for a number of reasons. Jealousy or envy is not one of those reasons. And I didn't say "if you buy this, you are an idiot". That is you simply projecting what you want to hear. If I had a small cheap car and you had a Bentley and I knocked you for the ostentation, yes you may get peeved. However, my criticism may be based around pragmatism - i.e.both cars get from A to B, why spend more - and not any of the emotional stuff that you are again trying to project onto others.

 

Based around all the arguments you put forward, mrchan, I can only concluded that you must live your life in a seething sea of intense envy (be a good name for a green ink I daresay!).

 

I mentioned earlier that nobody believes me when I say I am not envious of people who have things that I cannot afford. The reason why is that they cannot conceive of the notion of not being jealous. If they are, so must I, in essence.

 

IMPORTANT BIT

 

Unlike a lot of people I do not have hang-ups about not having things. I am comfortable (mostly, as I am only human!) with the transient nature of life. Things will come my way or they won't. If they do it will not be permanent. I will enjoy them when I have them, and I will enjoy the memory of having had them, but I will not mourn or bemoan their passing out of my hands.

 

Sadly, most people (a generalisation, I know) are locked into the cycle of desire and acquisition. The problem with this is the acquisition rarely if ever satisfies the desire. Think about it, at least a little bit.

The fact that I am not knocking other brands means that I am not envious about people who own them, I just enjoy looking at reviews of descriptions of those who do.

 

If you are going to go all Mr Pragmatic mode, yes both cars get from A to B, then a pencil works as well as a pen, in fact better. Why use a fountain pen? Why even buy more than 1 or 2 fountain pens? Why spend more? Did emotions of wanting more than 1 or 2 come into play? Sounds like it..

 

I am not a jealous man, but I think where we come in differently is that while I am comfortable where I am at the moment, I do have loftier aspirations to want certain things like a nice house in the future, good education for my kids, etc.. and I will work for them (not saying that you are not but you do project a laid back-ish feeling).

 

However the thing that I will have to agree with you on is that "Seething sea of intense envy" does sound like a fricking great name for a green ink.

[Cryptos]

We should sell it to Noodler's!

 

Laid-back? A bit I guess. I work hard too. I have been the sole supporter of my family for the last 3 years, putting my partner through University as well as being a part time tertiary student myself. It's been a struggle, but there is a little light at the end of this very long tunnel.

 

The pragmatism example was just an example to show that there is not always or even often a single way of seeing anything. When I see your Bentley I may think "so what, it's just a car" because I have no interest in cars. Another facet to consider.

 

The thing that rankles in this thread is the follwoign kind of statements:

 

 

The fact that I am not knocking other brands means that I am not envious about people who own them, I just enjoy looking at reviews of descriptions of those who do.

 

When you are more than willing to thrust the 'envy' label on others without any actual evidence.

[Baric]

Overpriced pens would be ones which are so high priced that people are unwilling to pay for them. It's not overpriced if people are willing to pay for it.

 

I don't know why these discussions turn personal or emotional. They're just pens. Do my choices about pens matter to anyone but me? Do other peoples' choices matter to me?

 

The only person's behavior I can control is my own. I focus on my own choices.

 

Hmmm, a post that makes sense. Interesting. And refreshing.