Overpriced

[Cryptos]

I hear you, J85. I am not a big fan of the Sebenza on aesthetic grounds only. From an engineering perspective it is very good as you say.

 

It's funny eh! Knives have the potential to be just as polarising among aficionados as pens. For me I have never come across a folder that I would choose over a fixed blade, but accept that sometimes the fixed is just not appropriate to the environment (i.e. the office! I may get away with it but I doubt it).

 

Ultimately I am less invested in folders generally. Though there are some great examples out there. And I do carry a cheap one for small tasks. Which is why a Sod Buster would be about as far as I feel need to go. Or a Michael Morris friction folder.

 

Sorry, I wasn't knocking your choice of folder. Just thought it was an interesting parallel with pen purchases.

[J85909266]

I've owned many fixed blades, some nearly as expensive and high-quality as my Sebenza, but I could never carry them as easily or comfortably as a folder. I sold all of them over the years. I keep one big, very nice fixed blade for my large knife needs.

 

Indeed, I have some very strong opinions about knives. I've been a regular at the most popular knife forum on the Internet since I turned 18. I've seen plenty of drama and scandal in that community.

 

No offense taken, by the way. I'm a believer in diversity and the importance of accepting and embracing all opinions and preferences so long as they do not harm others.

 

Thanks for the conversation.

[prf5]

 

No one over-pays voluntarily. By definition, you only will buy something if you feel the benefits - be they material (quality) or subjective (aesthetics, social, etc) - provide you with enough value/utility to justify the asking price...Some people are willing to pay more for something they consider beautiful. Other people are willing to pay more for something that will help them "fit in". Etc. etc. Regardless, they are getting a certain utility (performance, aesthetic enjoyment, mental comfort of fitting it) and they feel the object is worth the utility for them. If it wasnt, they wouldnt buy it

 

People overpay sometimes when they buy food at a convenience store or at a nice restaurant or when they purchase a pen or put fuel in their car, or buy water following a disaster. Overpaying doesn't necessarily prevent people from buying an item or service, though it may. The value of the item or service is one value among others. Other values are convenience, availability, and curiosity.

You acknowledged that these values influence what people do, perhaps inadvertently, when you said that "these are all aspects that have varying degrees of value/utility to each one of us." In other words, multiple values contribute to decisions. It happens that the value of the object or service is only one of them.

As you also said: "It is not for you or me to judge on whether a particular type of utility/value is more than another." If you want to know what values bear on a particular person's decision, you can ask them.

[Blade Runner]

It's definitely a bummer when I see a pen that I really like and then see that the price is 500 dollars or more and that I will probably never be able to afford it. The most I've ever spent on a personal, non-furniture/car/electronic possession was my $425 dollar Sebenza. I just don't ever see myself spending that kind of money on a pen, yet, and certainly not higher.

 

However, that doesn't mean they are overpriced, nor am I bitter. There are plenty of interesting pens that are in my price range.

A honest and honourable post.

 

Unfortunately there are those who are bitter about prices. They attack luxury brands in various forums in order to make a statement about those who buy them, inferring they are all gullible to marketing, lack knowledge about the product, buy to show off, "have more money than brains" , etc. It's a broad brush of bitterness. But it's reaching the completely wrong audience in forums, because those who participate in forums are generally "geeks" who are truly knowledgeable about the product, often own and enjoy other brands , enjoy using the item daily, and often buy them second hand at more affordable prices.

 

Another common tact is to attack the material of a luxury brand plastic instead of metal or urushi or lacquer, etc., ignoring the fact that someone else might actually prefer plastic for a daily workhorse pen. It's light, looks great, easy to replace (ever try to fix a dent in a metal pen or match a replacement urushi cap to an older body?), and they ignore the pen as a whole: nib characteristics, size, ergonomics, filling mechanism and capacity, aesthetics, customer service in one's country, that might be compelling reasons to choose that pen.

 

It's a old song and dance meant to tear down.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Blade Runner

[de_pen_dent]

You acknowledged that these values influence what people do, perhaps inadvertently, when you said that "these are all aspects that have varying degrees of value/utility to each one of us." In other words, multiple values contribute to decisions. It happens that the value of the object or service is only one of them.

 

True.

 

I think where we differ is that I think these other benefits - social benefits, convenience, even desperation - are part of the "value" of the object. You are limiting your definition of "value" to some intrinsic property of the item itself.

 

Food is a good example. How do judge whether a meal is fairly priced or not? It is calories/$? How do you quantify taste? How do you quantify the joy of a great evening out with your SO in a restaurant with great ambience, great food and great service?

 

One approach is to say "I can buy a pound of steak for $XX, so anything over, say, $YY is over priced". Sure. If that is your particular method of determining value, that is fine.

 

Another approach is "A meal in this restaurant costs me $XX" - is the overall package: the food, the ambience, the convenience, the fun of a night out, etc. etc worth it to me?

 

I am obviously in the latter camp: if i am wiling to pay the price for a product, then it is, by definition, not over-priced b/c it had enough value to me to make me spend money on it.

 

Example: My favorite steakhouse charges $200 for a 200gm wagyu steak (and sides extra, damn their eyes). I cannot afford to eat there everyday (and it helps i dont like in that city). But I do try to eat there a couple of time a year b/c hottdemn, this steak is something divine. Is it overpriced? I think it is staggering expensive. I really wish it was cheaper. But I like it enough to eat it. So to me, while it is expensive & while i wish it were cheaper, it isnt overpriced. To someone else with a different value system, who isnt as much of a gourmand as me, that price is astronomical, absurd and indeed overpriced. I have friends pulling in hefty six figures a year who get a $50 steak instead when we eat there.

 

Each choice is valid. I respect my friends' choices and dont call them cheap asses (I even let them take a bite out of my steak, albeit a small one ), my friends dont insult my intelligence for paying what I agree is a ridiculous amount of money for a singularly tiny amount of meat.

 

And that sums up my simple point throughout this thread: I have not argued over the superiority of one school of though over the other: it has been that if you (not you specifically, speaking generally) fall into one camp above, it is not nice to cast aspersions on those who fall into the other.

 

There have been a surprising number of intelligent and erudite people on this thread - people with whom i could see myself having a beer at a bar - who have taken a depressingly dismissive and condescending stance towards those who are more profligate than them.

 

Anyway, I am sort of veering off topic now. A long bike ride always makes me expansive, so I'll STFU now.

Edited October 18, 2014 by de_pen_dent

[de_pen_dent]

As for that bit I snipped in the quote above: you should probably hope you never get to that level, sir, as the upper limit on "fancy" fountain pens... well, it's definitely up there

 

When the MB149 is your everyday beater pen, then you know you've attained the upper limit.

 

That's what i find so funny. The MB149 isnt even the most expensive pen out there - not by a long shot. It is just one pen in a fairly large portfolio of pens MB makes. MB also makes cheaper pens. So if someone is buying a pen merely for the birdsplat, they have less expensive options. So obviously there must be SOMETHING about the 149 that attracts people to them, esp when there are cheaper options with more "fancy" bodywork right next to it (eg, Starwalkers).

 

(For the record, I just bought another 149 the other day and am selling my 146 - I've had the 149 inked up while this thread has been running and have realized how much i like the balance and writing feel of that pen - I have a F/EF, a M and a BB. So I have to thank this thread for helping revive my fondness for this pen. )

[prf5]

I think where we differ is that I think these other benefits - social benefits, convenience, even desperation - are part of the "value" of the object. You are limiting your definition of "value" to some intrinsic property of the item itself....if i am wiling to pay the price for a product, then it is, by definition, not over-priced b/c it had enough value to me to make me spend money on it....Each choice is valid. I respect my friends' choices.

 

Values are judgments made by people. Frequently, people overpay. Fountain pens are an odd item because they have a narrow market that includes people who regard them as a luxury and others who regard them as an indulgence, a practical necessity, and an everyday tool. Because the market is narrow, fountain pens aren't like foods or cars. The result is an odd combination of people who are eager to overpay, people who are willing to overpay but don't feel good about it, and people who are not willing to overpay. That's at least in part why subjects of value and cost are so relevant here, why some people resent others' willingness to overpay, and why some of the latter are resentful of being ridiculed.

[Lyander0012]

de_pen_dent: Sending you a PM regarding that 146; been meaning to add one to my collection eventually

 

(In a rush currently, so that's about all from me for now).

[redisburning]

Still, I see your point. What drew me to the Sebenza was the way lesser knifes loosen, become uneven and need constant tuning over time to remain up to my standard. Sebenzas are expensive because they are manufactured and finished to astronomical tolerances. The difference to an experienced knife user, especially when taking one down and reassembling, is so impressive and obvious.

 

I don't quite know enough about pens to need that level of quality, but I may get there some day.

 

Well Sal from Spyderco basically shut the case on the price of the Sebenza when he said it would cost about the same amount of money if you wanted a knife that good from Spyderco. The Sage 2 is nice but it's not a sebenza. I've owned 2 large sebenza 21s and I could never get to like the handle shape. it took me a long time to find a knife that was put together as well that wasn't a full blown custom, and Im very happy with the Strider SJ75. Which costs about the same as a sebenza.

 

I just want to point out that producing things is a LOT more expensive than just the cost of materials unless we are talking unbelievable output. Someone has to put the damn thing together, and pens have small, sometimes fragile parts.

 

I'm not really suggesting the new price of a 149 has the same margin as a Japanese cigar style pen but at the same time I highly suspect their margin is not nearly as greater as some people seem to think. Please understand that EVERY small company is going to need to have a high margin on the product. You don't keep your doors open if you are a <10mil company and have a 10% margin on your big items.

[lsmith42]

I have a 1st edition. Likely not a first printing but a second printing due to a difference in the binding, or mine was rebound at some point. My copy is signed by the author, one of only a few known to be signed.

Has it been authenticated? Did you taste it?

[FarmBoy]

Has it been authenticated? Did you taste it?

Yes.

Tastes like mildew and old leather. Even balsamic wouldn't help.

[kazoolaw]

No one over-pays voluntarily.

 

* **

 

It is not for you or me to judge on whether a particular type of utility/value is more than another.

 

When is the last time you saw someone overpay with a gun to their head?

 

Again, judging relative utility happens constantly in the real world, both in the good and in the bad sense.

 

Gary

[Charles Skinner]

I have a Montblanc 146 that I love. Can't remember what I paid for it years ago, but my guess is that today, a new one goes for at least $600.00. Over priced? Can't say. BUT it brings to mind a pen I recently bought for $10.00 from Goulet, the Jinhao X750, and it is really, really a great writer! So, $600.00 or $10.00? Choice is one of the great things in life. "To each his own," to coin a phrase.

 

C. S.

[de_pen_dent]

When is the last time you saw someone overpay with a gun to their head?

 

Again, judging relative utility happens constantly in the real world, both in the good and in the bad sense.

 

That's kinda my point, Gary.

 

And yeah, sure we can judge relative utility. A thinks B is a moron for spending so much money on a pen. B thinks A is a broke tightwad. What is your point?

[FriendAmos]

Define obscene for us please... No one has yet been able to do so in any context.

 

Obscene = the kind money MB asks for (and somehow gets!) for what it sells.

[lmarine0510]

Farmboy: Good god NO!!! Anything but that ridiculous Losers Debating Manual!!!

 

 

Two things:

 

1/ I mean no offense with this, but until you are in a position to afford to spend $1000 on a pen, you really dont know what your preferences will be in that situation - you can try to extrapolate, but your extrapolation will always be colored by your present financial situation.

 

2/ If you feel MB isnt worth it, that's fine - thankfully, the market is full of excellent products at various price points all of us can enjoy. I have no desire to try to change your mind.

 

I will say this, however - it is intellectual laziness to dismiss a product that doest appeal to you by saying "they charge more to associate with people of affluence." There is a lot more to becoming a high-end brand than just charging a lot - I touched upon this earlier in the thread. What you are essentially doing is waving a metaphorical arm and coming up with a trite, specious rationale to conveniently explain away behavior that is completely different from yours, rather than making an effort to understand why people might have different values. You dont need to make an effort to understand, obviously - but in that case, you might as well refrain from this overly-simplistic dismissal either.

 

You are correct about one thing, however - some brands command a premium b/c of their name. But this hasnt happened simply because of some self-referential circular logic where they established their brand name by charging a premium. This is b/c the brand has established itself by achieving a high standard in whatever metric is appropriate for that product - be it performance, aesthetics, quality control, etc.

 

Montblanc is one of the most storied companies in the pen world. They didnt get here by accident but earned their place by making some really wonderful pens for nearly a century. Now, whether they are cruising on reputation alone (Parker, looking at you), or taking a gamble and failing (hello, Conway Stewart) is a matter of interpretation and can always change. But as long as they retain this reputation, they will of course always command a premium compared to Bubba John's Pens.

Maybe I didn't convey what I had on my mind correctly. I have written with a MB 149 that I borrowed from a friend, and I just could not see what made this pen worth 1000 dollars. It was quite a nice pen, it balanced well, and the nib was as smooth as glass, but I just could not see what made it command such a high price. I have pens that cost me a fraction of that price that write just as well, if not better. I apologize if I inadvertently offended any 149 user who loves their pen and feels that it was worth every nickel they spent for it.

[Blade Runner]

 

Obscene = the kind money MB asks for (and somehow gets!) for what it sells.

Then that would apply to any brand that sell high end pens. The majority of brands do.

[lsmith42]

It's good to know that "obscene" now has an objective definition, in much the same way as "vintage" and "modern" have been defined.

[Blade Runner]

It's good to know that "obscene" now has an objective definition, in much the same way as "vintage" and "modern" have been defined.

 

Edit to add: And don't forget "overpriced".

Edited October 18, 2014 by Blade Runner

[FarmBoy]

It's good to know that "obscene" now has an objective definition, in much the same way as "vintage" and "modern" have been defined.

What I find key in all of this is I can now justify owning MB pens, but only as long as they are obscene. I'd not own them if they were anything else.