Overpriced

[Blade Runner]

 

Wha...? So what the hell do we argue about now??

 

The cost of higher education? The price of real estate in desirable places? The cost of quality health care? The cost of quality nursing home care? Compared to these, the argument about pens is trivial.

[Newjelan]

Defining overpriced:

 

A product is overpriced if you value what it has to offer, but are only willing to pay a lower price for it than what the product sells for.

 

To me, that is a consistent definition.

 

Well put. I'd add that a if you don't value what a product has to offer then even "free" is overpriced.

[FriendAmos]

I never once said what I felt was the case for other people. Don't make assumptions about me assuming.

 

Read your opening line: "Materialism has nothing to do with happiness". That is a very general statement. Next time, try this: "For me, materialism has nothing to do with happiness" or "In my experience, materialism has nothing to do with happiness" or ...

[prf5]

de_pen_dent, on 17 Oct 2014 - 08:36, said:

Defining overpriced:

A product is overpriced if you value what it has to offer, but are only willing to pay a lower price for it than what the product sells for.

To me, that is a consistent definition.

Well put. I'd add that a if you don't value what a product has to offer then even "free" is overprice

 

Overpaying is a judgment. This judgment may or may not determine what we do. It's not uncommon for consumers to pay more than what they gauge that a product is worth. They overpay for convenience, availability, and curiosity; they overpay to meet social norms. They overpay as a means of achieving an end. Consumers can judge an item to be overpriced and acknowledge that they are overpaying in the course plunking down their money. The definition or explanation that is offered above is not consistent with judgment or behavior.

[lsmith42]

Does anyone know what time Big Bang Theory comes on?

[lmarine0510]

IMO, a lot of pens, like any other product, have a high price due to the fact that they were made by a certain manufacturer. Even if I could afford one, there is still no way that I would buy a MB 149 or any thing of the sort at full price or even half of full price. I feel that a lot of brands of different products only want to associate themselves with people of affluence and do so by jacking the prices of said products to something obscene.

[lsmith42]

Define obscene for us please... No one has yet been able to do so in any context.

[lmarine0510]

Define obscene for us please... No one has yet been able to do so in any context.

Obscene is relative and subjective. Personally, I think that 50 bucks for a Parker Urban is obscene because the thing, simply, is a piece of (bleep). On the other hand, 50 bucks for a Parker 51 is a good deal because those things do their jobs quite nicely. $935 for a Montblanc 149 is obscene because, although it works beautifully and does its job perfectly well, there is no justification for charging that much for a pen.

[lsmith42]

"is obscene" by definition is not subjective

[redisburning]

Obscene is relative and subjective. Personally, I think that 50 bucks for a Parker Urban is obscene because the thing, simply, is a piece of (bleep). On the other hand, 50 bucks for a Parker 51 is a good deal because those things do their jobs quite nicely. $935 for a Montblanc 149 is obscene because, although it works beautifully and does its job perfectly well, there is no justification for charging that much for a pen.

 

uh... margin is an extremely compelling justification to charge that much for a pen lmao.

 

 

my definition of overpriced is that it costs more than I would get if I sold it. I suspect my collection looks pretty different than most people's though.

[FarmBoy]

This thread needs a copy of the "Losing Debater's Manual"

[FarmBoy]

Does anyone know what time Big Bang Theory comes on?

Did I mention I like balsamic vinegar? Yes I did if you pay attention. To clarify, I like the really thick syrupy old stuff with sediment in the bottom of the bottle. I found out my local Greek Market owner likes the stuff too. Cutting to the chase, I got me a bottle of 23 year old stuff made from figs. Unreal.

 

[de_pen_dent]

Overpaying is a judgment. This judgment may or may not determine what we do. It's not uncommon for consumers to pay more than what they gauge that a product is worth. They overpay for convenience, availability, and curiosity; they overpay to meet social norms. They overpay as a means of achieving an end. Consumers can judge an item to be overpriced and acknowledge that they are overpaying in the course plunking down their money. The definition or explanation that is offered above is not consistent with judgment or behavior.

 

No one over-pays voluntarily.

 

By definition, you only will buy something if you feel the benefits - be they material (quality) or subjective (aesthetics, social, etc) - provide you with enough value/utility to justify the asking price.

 

Convenience, availability, curiosity, meeting social norms, making someone else happy - these are all aspects that have varying degrees of value/utility to each one of us. Some people are willing to pay more for something they consider beautiful. Other people are willing to pay more for something that will help them "fit in". Etc. etc. Regardless, they are getting a certain utility (performance, aesthetic enjoyment, mental comfort of fitting it) and they feel the object is worth the utility for them. If it wasnt, they wouldnt buy it.

 

It is not for you or me to judge on whether a particular type of utility/value is more than another.

Edited October 18, 2014 by de_pen_dent

[de_pen_dent]

Farmboy: Good god NO!!! Anything but that ridiculous Losers Debating Manual!!!

 

IMO, a lot of pens, like any other product, have a high price due to the fact that they were made by a certain manufacturer. Even if I could afford one, there is still no way that I would buy a MB 149 or any thing of the sort at full price or even half of full price. I feel that a lot of brands of different products only want to associate themselves with people of affluence and do so by jacking the prices of said products to something obscene.

 

Two things:

 

1/ I mean no offense with this, but until you are in a position to afford to spend $1000 on a pen, you really dont know what your preferences will be in that situation - you can try to extrapolate, but your extrapolation will always be colored by your present financial situation.

 

2/ If you feel MB isnt worth it, that's fine - thankfully, the market is full of excellent products at various price points all of us can enjoy. I have no desire to try to change your mind.

 

I will say this, however - it is intellectual laziness to dismiss a product that doest appeal to you by saying "they charge more to associate with people of affluence." There is a lot more to becoming a high-end brand than just charging a lot - I touched upon this earlier in the thread. What you are essentially doing is waving a metaphorical arm and coming up with a trite, specious rationale to conveniently explain away behavior that is completely different from yours, rather than making an effort to understand why people might have different values. You dont need to make an effort to understand, obviously - but in that case, you might as well refrain from this overly-simplistic dismissal either.

 

You are correct about one thing, however - some brands command a premium b/c of their name. But this hasnt happened simply because of some self-referential circular logic where they established their brand name by charging a premium. This is b/c the brand has established itself by achieving a high standard in whatever metric is appropriate for that product - be it performance, aesthetics, quality control, etc.

 

Montblanc is one of the most storied companies in the pen world. They didnt get here by accident but earned their place by making some really wonderful pens for nearly a century. Now, whether they are cruising on reputation alone (Parker, looking at you), or taking a gamble and failing (hello, Conway Stewart) is a matter of interpretation and can always change. But as long as they retain this reputation, they will of course always command a premium compared to Bubba John's Pens.

Edited October 18, 2014 by de_pen_dent

[FarmBoy]

I have a 1st edition. Likely not a first printing but a second printing due to a difference in the binding, or mine was rebound at some point. My copy is signed by the author, one of only a few known to be signed.

[J85909266]

It's definitely a bummer when I see a pen that I really like and then see that the price is 500 dollars or more and that I will probably never be able to afford it. The most I've ever spent on a personal, non-furniture/car/electronic possession was my $425 dollar Sebenza. I just don't ever see myself spending that kind of money on a pen, yet, and certainly not higher.

 

However, that doesn't mean they are overpriced, nor am I bitter. There are plenty of interesting pens that are in my price range.

[Cryptos]

If you can afford a Sebenza...

 

It's only a question of choice. There's plenty of really good folding knives that perform as well as the Chris Reeve that cost a lot less. You chose an expensive folder, but will not choose an expensive pen. Choice, personal priorities. Never say never!

 

Not criticizing. Just pointing out the similarities. The last time I paid that sort of money for a personal, non-furniture/car/electronic possession was for a Scott Rodell Cutting Jian (it's a sword, I'm an practitioner). At the time I wanted it more than a pen. Interesting juxtaposition.

[Lyander0012]

I will say this: some relatively minor things aside, I'm enjoying this thread quite a lot, and learning a fair amount as well. Always a good thing to expand one's mental horizons, yeah? As an aside: I once considered my first fountain pen (a Sheaffer Prelude) to be exorbitantly priced, and swore to never buy anything more expensive than that, if I were to get another pen. This was just under two years ago, I think.

 

... So. I now own a grand total of nine FPs, most of which are entry-level but still pricier than the Prelude (a Diamond 580, a vintage Waterman's 52 1/2V. a LAMY 2000, etc.), with one coming dangerously close to the $500 mark (a Sailor with a specialty nib). I'm not likely to get anything pricier anytime soon, not until I come into a substantially large amount of money anyway, but the idea of a $1000 bespoke pen isn't as silly as it once seemed to me. It's just as intimidating as it was at first, in all honesty, but not as silly with my new perspective of Nakayas, Romillos, Viscontis, etc. as functional works of art.

 

I fully agree with de_pen_dent's first point, by the by; I'm putting a bit of a nest egg together (if I'm using that idiom correctly), and as the premium pens slowly enter my range, I'm becoming even more conflicted about them. The desire for them grows alongside and at the same rate as an impulse to criticize them. By criticize, I mean asking questions such as "How expensive is urushi/ebonite/whatever other raw materials the pen is made of?", "Is it really that difficult to make a pen by hand or work with urushi?", "What's the value of a fully handcrafted nib?", and most importantly "Will I feel like I'm getting my money's worth in buying this pen?". This in my opinion makes critiquing these things seem like an attractive option to individuals trying to rationalize or comprehend their cost.

 

About Parker, I suppose one could say that they're riding on their reputation as one of the biggest American pen companies from the golden age of fountain pens, but some of their models (the modern pearl and black Duofold, for one) still strike me as striking pieces, as do Sheaffer's Legacy series. True, their current lines might not be as innovative or mechanically complex as the 51s and Snorkels of old, but both brands' modern releases are more than functional enough, and really good looking to boot. It's not that either company stopped caring, methinks, since they do still work to earn a profit and stay out of the red; they merely adapted to suit the current market. While FP enthusiasts might get all excited over exotic filling systems and unique bottled inks, the fact of the matter is that C/C fillers are pragmatic, and their reduced ink capacity reflects how people are being weaned off of handwritten notes by the sheer convenience of smartphones and laptops.

 

 

Cheers!

Kevin

[J85909266]

If you can afford a Sebenza...

 

It's only a question of choice. There's plenty of really good folding knives that perform as well as the Chris Reeve that cost a lot less. You chose an expensive folder, but will not choose an expensive pen. Choice, personal priorities. Never say never!

 

Not criticizing. Just pointing out the similarities. The last time I paid that sort of money for a personal, non-furniture/car/electronic possession was for a Scott Rodell Cutting Jian (it's a sword, I'm an practitioner). At the time I wanted it more than a pen. Interesting juxtaposition.

Just because I have a Sebenza doesn't mean I can afford to spend that kind of money on hobby items regularly, lol. That was a special purchase made nearly a decade ago when I had no wife or child, and my cost of living was much lower.

 

Still, I see your point. What drew me to the Sebenza was the way lesser knifes loosen, become uneven and need constant tuning over time to remain up to my standard. Sebenzas are expensive because they are manufactured and finished to astronomical tolerances. The difference to an experienced knife user, especially when taking one down and reassembling, is so impressive and obvious.

 

I don't quite know enough about pens to need that level of quality, but I may get there some day.

Edited October 18, 2014 by J85909266

[Lyander0012]

[snip]

 

I don't quite know enough about pens to need that level of quality, but I may get there some day.

 

I have a Chinese friend who is into throwing knives and the like, so I can sort of relate since he almost got me into the hobby (might have worked too, were it not for the fact that he was also the type to get involved in... fights, and I wanted to steer clear of such things); it's almost like an investment, saving yourself the effort in upkeep and the like by purchasing a well-crafted knife, yeah? I'll readily admit that I just now heard of the Sebenza brand, but I have some small perspective on the matter.

 

As for that bit I snipped in the quote above: you should probably hope you never get to that level, sir, as the upper limit on "fancy" fountain pens... well, it's definitely up there

 

Cheers!

 

Kevin