Iron Gall Inks In Vintage Pens

[Ego Id Veto]

Hey guys,

 

I'm a pretty avid vintage pen collector, but it seems that literally all of my vintages are really excessively wet writers. It was suggested to me that I use an iron gall ink such as Rohrer & Klingner Salix and Scabiosa, as they're drier writing inks.

 

Now I know that iron gall inks used to be used in older fountain pens, and most of my vintages have gold nibs, so corrosion isn't a problem.

 

But is there a risk in using these inks in my vintages? Any pens made out of particular materials (like celluloid or casein) that I should avoid?

 

And can I still use the regular ammonia pen flush I usually do? I'd assume that would be good, with the ammonia being alkaline and the iron gall ink being acidic.

 

Thanks for your advice guys!

[bardiir]

If you're using vintage then the pens have probably seen much more agressive inks than salix/scabiosa already. In my experience these two to actually handle very well behaved even with nibs that are non-gold. The only do cause issues when I use them in my TWSBI that is modded to use dip pen nibs, those corrode very fast even with normal ink beeing inked up 24/7 so with the iron gall it's sped up even more.

[KBeezie]

My only concern with Salix/Scabiosa is not the acidity (they're not very acidic as they used a different process to make them), but rather the sediments of the ink that may settle and eventually clog (it's also why salix left in a pen tends to become a deeper/darker blue to write with if the converter/etc has evaporated a bit).

 

I haven't had a clogging issue with it in my Nemosine Singularity with a Goulet 1.5 stub nib (which is a stainless steel nib), nor a hard start issue with it since March, but I've not used it in a vintage pen. I contemplated using it in my Parker 51 Vac, but cleaning that collector would be kind of a pain in the butt.

 

Also Stainless steel of today's modern pens hold up much more to corrosion and staining compared to steel nibs of the vintage era, so not sure if my stub not having an issue is any reflection on the ink itself or the newer materials. But like I said, I've got no concerns of the acidity of R&K's IG inks, just the possible sediments that may clog the feed much like using a pigmented ink like Platinum's Carbon Black.

 

Edit: In regards to either Salix or Scabiosa, they may be waterproof (if that's a goal), but they don't hold up very well to UV, meaning if it's not stored away in the dark, they will fade (almost completely if left in the light for 6 months).

 

Scabiosa shown here in a light fastness test. http://hudsonvalleysketches.blogspot.com/2012/12/lightfastness-test-results-on-noodlers.html

Edited September 8, 2014 by KBeezie

[dragos.mocanu]

I used Scabiosa in a super wet Eversharp Skyline with a 1.4mm stub for a couple of months now, and I never had any problem with it!

[KBeezie]

I used Scabiosa in a super wet Eversharp Skyline with a 1.4mm stub for a couple of months now, and I never had any problem with it!

 

If it's a gold nib I wouldn't see it causing a problem even if it was acidic.

 

I'd be curious about vintage steel nibs, particularly before the 60s/70s.

[Morbus Curiositas]

Check out Richards Pens....

 

Click for Inks: the good the bad and the ugly

 

http://richardspens.com/

 

He is an expert....

 

No need for IG inks today. If you wish for permanent inks there are nano particle inks on the market now.... The do not eat away your Nib... they do not eat away the paper, as they did in the Dutch VOC archive from the 17th century....

 

 

and they do not clogg your feed

 

DO clean you pen regularly though

 

If no need for permanency just use every modern ink you want... some are even quite waterproof and survive a drop of water.... No need for IG....

 

Want a true but safe black??? Kaweco Black....

 

But I guess there are more Ink Brands with true Blacks safe for Fountain Pens.... (Any idea KBeezie?)

[KBeezie]

Check out Richards Pens....

 

Click for Inks: the good the bad and the ugly

 

http://richardspens.com/

 

He is an expert....

 

No need for IG inks today. If you wish for permanent inks there are nano particle inks on the market now.... The do not eat away your Nib... they do not eat away the paper, as they did in the Dutch VOC archive from the 17th century....

 

 

and they do not clogg your feed

 

DO clean you pen regularly though

 

If no need for permanency just use every modern ink you want... some are even quite waterproof and survive a drop of water.... No need for IG....

 

Want a true but safe black??? Kaweco Black....

 

But I guess there are more Ink Brands with true Blacks safe for Fountain Pens.... (Any idea KBeezie?)

 

You have an interesting way of wording things.

 

Far as 'need', I don't need salix. It's nice that it's waterproof, but the primary reason I like it, is the color and shading. So it's mostly appearance sake.

 

Far as "Safe" well technically most Fountain Pen Ink are pretty safe, it's lack of cleaning or pen maintenance that leads to problems (like not completely flushing out a pen, thus causing two different inks to mix, which can cause problems). Calligraphy Ink, India Ink, Speciality (as in replicate of medieval inks etc) inks are generally not safe.

 

Not sure why Black specifically, the two R&K inks in question are not black at all.

 

I've found Noodler's Black Eel to be just fine (lubricated, and waterproof), straight Noodler's black has been fine for the most part, but pens with very very fine nibs (like japanese Extra-Fine or smaller) may not be suitable with the bulletproof properties (or other brands of ink with similar properties, for example pigmented inks like Platinum Carbon Black can show the same issue).

 

Waterman Black is very well behaved, but not fully waterproof, and takes longer to dry depending on the nib. It leaves a yellow halo on the letters after being wet, but still legible.

 

And in terms of Iron Gall uses in today's world... well library of congress has a 2 hour video last year on new research regarding it. ( I couldn't sit thru the whole thing)

 

 

but I do agree, for most practical purposes, it's not needed except for the appearance or desirable properties (ie: personal preference).

 

But I want to re-iterate, one of the biggest reasons why an ink may not be considered safe (in terms of permanent damage) is most likely due to lack of proper pen maintenance allowing the inks to mix. It's also why some people may choose to use "easy to clean" inks which are not waterproof if they use something like a piston, lever, or vac filling pen, since it'll be quicker to change ink with lower risk of introducing a reactive combination due to not properly cleaning it out completely.

Edited September 8, 2014 by KBeezie

[bardiir]

If you wish for permanent inks there are nano particle inks on the market now.... The do not eat away your Nib... they do not eat away the paper, as they did in the Dutch VOC archive from the 17th century....

 

 

and they do not clogg your feed

 

I've had major issues with staining from the nano particles inks: Sailor Sei-Boku, Sailor Kiwaguro and Platinum Pigmented Carbon - they do stain, like hell - it's not permanent but it might require scrubbing to some extend. So if the pen has an ink window or ansthing that shouldn't be stained and can not easily be handled with a toothbrush I'd not recommend these. I got a blue tinted Lamy Vista from Sei-boku and it's not coming off, regardless of whatever I use to clean.

 

And if they dry down the sediment in the nano inks is as bad for clogging as is with salix.

[Morbus Curiositas]

 

I've had major issues with staining from the nano particles inks: Sailor Sei-Boku, Sailor Kiwaguro and Platinum Pigmented Carbon - they do stain, like hell - it's not permanent but it might require scrubbing to some extend. So if the pen has an ink window or ansthing that shouldn't be stained and can not easily be handled with a toothbrush I'd not recommend these. I got a blue tinted Lamy Vista from Sei-boku and it's not coming off, regardless of whatever I use to clean.

 

And if they dry down the sediment in the nano inks is as bad for clogging as is with salix.

OOPS... that's nasty....

 

But fortunately there ar cleaning sloutions for removing Die Hard inks.

 

The Goulet Pen company has an agent for that (it can even laundry money... the solution seems to be very popular in mafia circles )

 

http://www.gouletpens.com/Goulet_Pen_Cleaning_Package_Set_p/gpc-package-cleaning.htm

 

And then of course there is the Dalai Lama of Fountain Pen Wisdom.... Mr SBRE Brown (Fellow member Stephen Brown)... Who not only makes the best Fountain Pen videos (David attenborough can't make better ones )

 

But also has a video of making your own Fountain Pen cleaning solution....

 

I hope this helps you to flush out thse stinking nano-Farticle residue

 

 

Regards

 

Peter

[Morbus Curiositas]

 

You have an interesting way of wording things.

 

Far as 'need', I don't need salix. It's nice that it's waterproof, but the primary reason I like it, is the color and shading. So it's mostly appearance sake.

 

Far as "Safe" well technically most Fountain Pen Ink are pretty safe, it's lack of cleaning or pen maintenance that leads to problems (like not completely flushing out a pen, thus causing two different inks to mix, which can cause problems). Calligraphy Ink, India Ink, Speciality (as in replicate of medieval inks etc) inks are generally not safe.

 

Not sure why Black specifically, the two R&K inks in question are not black at all.

 

I've found Noodler's Black Eel to be just fine (lubricated, and waterproof), straight Noodler's black has been fine for the most part, but pens with very very fine nibs (like japanese Extra-Fine or smaller) may not be suitable with the bulletproof properties (or other brands of ink with similar properties, for example pigmented inks like Platinum Carbon Black can show the same issue).

 

Waterman Black is very well behaved, but not fully waterproof, and takes longer to dry depending on the nib. It leaves a yellow halo on the letters after being wet, but still legible.

 

And in terms of Iron Gall uses in today's world... well library of congress has a 2 hour video last year on new research regarding it. ( I couldn't sit thru the whole thing)

 

 

but I do agree, for most practical purposes, it's not needed except for the appearance or desirable properties (ie: personal preference).

 

But I want to re-iterate, one of the biggest reasons why an ink may not be considered safe (in terms of permanent damage) is most likely due to lack of proper pen maintenance allowing the inks to mix. It's also why some people may choose to use "easy to clean" inks which are not waterproof if they use something like a piston, lever, or vac filling pen, since it'll be quicker to change ink with lower risk of introducing a reactive combination due to not properly cleaning it out completely.

See why I wished for you to move to Delphi...

 

Thnaks for that very informative input again....

 

And thanks for that video sounds interesting....

 

Will grap a baag of crisps and a beer tomorrow and enjoy it

[bardiir]

OOPS... that's nasty....

 

But fortunately there ar cleaning sloutions for removing Die Hard inks.

 

The Goulet Pen company has an agent for that (it can even laundry money... the solution seems to be very popular in mafia circles )

 

At least the goulet pen flush doesn't work on the particles, at least not without swabbing them with a qtip - which is basically impossible, the stain is between the cartridge post and the outside of the pen and within the post itself. It's not bad in practice as the parts are not clearly transparent when in use but it's eventually an issue if you can't reach there to clean.

 

My TWSBI hat a blue tint for some time too, it still has in the little channel of the pen body where the grip section screws into with the feed and the feed itself has a bluish tint.

 

If you can scrub it, like physikally wipe it or something then it will come off with the solution but not with just flushing it, at least not in my experience. Maybe I'm just not patient enough when soaking it and stuff but it's the hardest of all stains up until now. And it will even stick to glass pens, though it seems to come off easier there.

[Morbus Curiositas]

 

At least the goulet pen flush doesn't work on the particles, at least not without swabbing them with a qtip - which is basically impossible, the stain is between the cartridge post and the outside of the pen and within the post itself. It's not bad in practice as the parts are not clearly transparent when in use but it's eventually an issue if you can't reach there to clean.

 

My TWSBI hat a blue tint for some time too, it still has in the little channel of the pen body where the grip section screws into with the feed and the feed itself has a bluish tint.

 

If you can scrub it, like physikally wipe it or something then it will come off with the solution but not with just flushing it, at least not in my experience. Maybe I'm just not patient enough when soaking it and stuff but it's the hardest of all stains up until now. And it will even stick to glass pens, though it seems to come off easier there.

What a disaster....

 

 

Must say I o have some nano partice inks, but noproblems with them... I clean every 2 months... Funnily the Lamy and other no brand converters are the easiest to clean...

 

Hopefully for Ego id Veto that stuff from Mr Brown works....

 

Otherwise he will have to send it to a specialist... there are quite a few in the UK and I beleive Mr Binder can do it too

[KBeezie]

What a disaster....

 

 

Must say I o have some nano partice inks, but noproblems with them... I clean every 2 months... Funnily the Lamy and other no brand converters are the easiest to clean...

 

Hopefully for Ego id Veto that stuff from Mr Brown works....

 

Otherwise he will have to send it to a specialist... there are quite a few in the UK and I beleive Mr Binder can do it too

 

Converters don't seem like the biggest pain to clean, I generally find them to be easy, and typically the worse case scenario is to completely disassemble them and just re-grease them after cleaning.

 

I'd be the most paranoid about the feed, especially if they're long and have plenty of fins to act as a collector, and extra especially if the feed and nib are not usually easily to remove, since those can take forever to flush if you really want to get them changed, or if you use an ink with heavy pigments/sediments. An ammonia bath may work, but I've never tried to clean pigmented inks before, has worked well with noodler's bulletproof inks though (but I've never had to use ammonia as a "last resort" since warm soapy water and a little bit of time did the trick).

 

Unless I am mistaken, Richard Binder stopped taking in work a while back.

[Morbus Curiositas]

 

Converters don't seem like the biggest pain to clean, I generally find them to be easy, and typically the worse case scenario is to completely disassemble them and just re-grease them after cleaning.

 

I'd be the most paranoid about the feed, especially if they're long and have plenty of fins to act as a collector, and extra especially if the feed and nib are not usually easily to remove, since those can take forever to flush if you really want to get them changed, or if you use an ink with heavy pigments/sediments. An ammonia bath may work, but I've never tried to clean pigmented inks before, has worked well with noodler's bulletproof inks though (but I've never had to use ammonia as a "last resort" since warm soapy water and a little bit of time did the trick).

 

Unless I am mistaken, Richard Binder stopped taking in work a while back.

 

 

Well maybe it is not a good idea to use rsky inks in fountain pens... you are absolutely right if you like the colour of an IG or Soot ink use it.. But I will not since there are so many ink manufacurers wiht such a vast array of inks. I guess i can find any ink colour of my liking without being it IG or soot

 

Too bad about Binder... I know there are a few Fountain Pen specialists in England... The Onoto website lists a few

[KBeezie]

 

 

Well maybe it is not a good idea to use rsky inks in fountain pens... you are absolutely right if you like the colour of an IG or Soot ink use it.. But I will not since there are so many ink manufacurers wiht such a vast array of inks. I guess i can find any ink colour of my liking without being it IG or soot

 

Too bad about Binder... I know there are a few Fountain Pen specialists in England... The Onoto website lists a few

 

"risky" seems to be a subjective term. For example Platinum Carbon Black... that's made by Platinum, they wouldn't put it out there if it damages or causes too many problems their own pens.

[Ego Id Veto]

Well also the reason why I'm so keen on the R&K inks is that they're dry writing.

 

Most of my vintages are fire hoses, depositing huge amounts of ink when flexed, leaving no room for shading. And I thought using a more old fashioned ink would dry the flow a bit.

[bardiir]

If you want a dry ink: try Pelikan 4001 inks... they are dry as sand...

 

The blue-black is pretty close to salix:

http://www.fp-ink.info/colorcard/14.png

 

And they are extremely non-offending inks when it comes to characteristics.

Edited September 8, 2014 by bardiir

[KBeezie]

If you want a dry ink: try Pelikan 4001 inks... they are dry as sand...

 

The blue-black is pretty close to salix:

http://www.fp-ink.info/colorcard/14.png

 

And they are extremely non-offending inks when it comes to characteristics.

 

How water resistant is it?

 

Also is Pelikan Brilliant Black = 4001 Black? (and if so, any details on it's water resistance?)

[bardiir]

 

How water resistant is it?

 

Also is Pelikan Brilliant Black = 4001 Black? (and if so, any details on it's water resistance?)

Yes the brilliant ones are the 4001 series. Water resistance is somewhere around non existent.

[Bo Bo Olson]

My old Pelikan and MB paper work with airplanes with props, said clean every three months...so that included IG inks which was common ink and not refereed too.

That of course was some one was using the One Man One Pen, every day or two....not letting it lay around in a drawer for weeks.

New ink into the pen, cleaned the pen.

 

If paranoid every 6 weeks, but few keep using the same ink for that long....so don't worry about it.