Luxury/art Pens

[sandy101]

 

 

I'm not sure how you arrive at that last assertion. The cheapest 1941 Parker "51" had a list price of $12.50 and today you would be lucky to find one at ten times the initial price.

 

As tonybelding has pointed out, the P51 has not held its (monetary) value with inflation. If I've got $10,000, where's the sense in buying something that has already diminished in value, and is only set to diminish further? The purpose of commissioning a new art pen is because;

 

1/ it would please me - especially to see how the artist works to produce the pen.

 

2/ I get a new pen. No worries about the bladder being so weak that removing it will do more harm than good, or that the nib is bent or the fact that no-one actually manufactures a filling mechanism for the pen should it need replaced.

 

3/ my point about the Hero was that fountain pens do not hold their value - a second hand gold nibbed Parker can be had for £10, whereas the cheapest, brand new gold nibbed pen can be had for £65. This shows that there is no inherent value in a gold nib - if there were all gold nibs would sell for £65 or more. Is a Parker better quality than a Hero - probably - does a vintage gold nibbed Parker cost more than a brand new gold nibbed Hero - probably not.

 

Besides, I've got $10,000 dollars to spend and I'm not going to muck around with a 60 year old pen that costs no more than $100. What would I do with the other $9,900? The whole point of extravagant consumption is the extravagance and if I'm paying that much for a pen, I'd really like it to work out of the box and not have to immerse it in detergent for a week to remove fifty years of crud.

 

4/ Artwork can increase in value - so, an exclusive pen, designed by XXX, may actually hold its value - especially if the design is unique and features characteristics of the artist's style. Yes, it is unlikely, but a one of a kind unique artwork would do well - imagine a Damien Hurst FP with a bejewelled skull on the back, or a Mak-e pen with an exclusive Andy Warhol screen print on it. That's what I'm talking about.

 

 

I've bough vintage pens and I've bought new ones - and I much prefer new ones. You are free to disagree, if it's your £10,000. I might be convinced buy Lord Byron's pen for £10,000, but that's because of the association with the poet, and not the inherent qualities of the pen.

[tonybelding]

I suspect some of these companies, especially the jewelry companies, may produce some super-exotic pens mainly for the prestige and publicity that comes from showing them off and demonstrating the craftsmanship their people are capable of. And if they actually end up selling one to somebody, that's gravy.

[Keyless Works]

I haven't been on the FPN all that long but I always find it amusing to watch people reply to Jar's "controversial" comments. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/popcorn.gif

It's like trying to argue with a dining room table (in the words of Barney Frank)

 

I agree with him a lot of the time but the fact that people think that this man's mind can be changed is ridiculous.

 

Cheers to you Jar!

[jar]

I haven't been on the FPN all that long but I always find it amusing to watch people reply to Jar's "controversial" comments. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/popcorn.gif

It's like trying to argue with a dining room table (in the words of Barney Frank)

 

I agree with him a lot of the time but the fact that people think that this man's mind can be changed is ridiculous.

 

Cheers to you Jar!

 

Oh, please understand. My current position on things is the result of having changed my mind over and over again. My positions are always subject to change if a sufficiently convincing argument is presented.

[inkstainedruth]

Okay. Assuming that I really did have 10K discretionary budget to spend on one or more pens: would I buy a single "art pen"? No. Not even that Namiki Emperor Crane pen someone mentioned (I looked it up and it is *really* beautiful, though).

Most of the pens that fall into the category are overlarge and and non-ergonomic looking; they're gaudy and often really sort of tasteless looking. If i'm going to spend that money on "art" I'm going to buy art -- not an expensive toy just to show that I can afford it.

The custom makie-pens are a different matter. They're really beautiful, but given how allergic I am to poison ivy, the idea of something made with urushiol oil as lacquer just screams "look but don't touch". The idea of something that beautiful having to be used with latex protective gloves makes me sad. It also makes me not willing to buy one (even if I could afford it).

I'm a simple girl with simple tastes (give me a shot and a beer over a martini any day of the week). I'd much rather spend that 10K on a group of pens that are beautiful *and* functional (saw an absolutely drool-worthy Burgundy Shadow Wave at DCSS for more than my entire weekend shopping budget, and some gorgeous vintage Pelikan tortoise pens). I looked at some of the "art pens" too -- but none of them attracted me in the slightest, other than from the prospective of them being curios.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[de_pen_dent]

I suspect that a lot of the statements on "how i would spend $10k if I could afford to do so" would change were the person actually in a position where they could blow $10k on a single pen, if they wanted to.

Edited August 12, 2014 by de_pen_dent

[inkstainedruth]

I suspect that a lot of the statements on "how i would spend $10k if I could afford to do so" would change were the person actually in a position where they could blow $10k on a single pen, if they wanted to.

In some cases, that's possible. Not in mine. I know pretty much what I like and don't like. And a lot of the "art pens" are just plain big ugly sticks with nibs on one end so they can pretend to be pens.

Lessee, now. For 10K I could pick up 8 or 9 (!) Viceroy Victorian Standards, all with 18K nibs. And still have available cash to get the burgundy Shadow Wave I saw at DCSS over the weekend. And both of the green ones at the same table.... And then see if the Emerald Pearl Vac with the lockdown filler was still available....

And since I really have no need of 9 Viceroy Vicrotians (assume 3 just for giggles, one in each nib width) I'd have a lot more spare cash to play with....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[ANOTHER MIND]

If I would have a great amount to spend on fountain pens I would rather buy one pen that is extraordinary than more pens that are casual. Maybe you have only one chance to buy that pen. As a comparison: if you had the money, would you climb Mt. Everest or 10 others mountains. The other thing is that I would like to order a pen designed by myself (for example a custom sculpture etc) that I could pass down to my kids and so on, like a signet ring.

[Beechwood]

Given that very nice choice, I would rather give the $10,000 to a deserving cause rather than spend it on a pen.

[Cryptos]

***DELETED***

 

(because the post didn't fit with the expectations of the thread, and brought nothing of importance to the musings of the OP)

Edited August 14, 2014 by Cryptos

[de_pen_dent]

Does "Art" have to be expensive?

 

My personal favourite pen - from an aesthetic perspective - is the Pilot 912. It's not terribly expensive (though beyond my current means) and is actually my 'grail' pen. Does the fact that this pen appeals to me when a MB Writer (or some such) does not, mean that I do not have any sense of the Artistic?

 

<snipped for brevity>

 

So, I think the question in the OP is a mismatch and invalid.

 

I think this is starting to veer off onto a tangent. Yes, you can argue about the relationship between art and price till the cows come home and never reach consensus b/c all it takes is 1 person to value a piece of art at a price with a few extra zeros and that price is set. You can also also argue that a Pilot 912 is a work of art.

 

However, in the context of this discussion, it is quite clear what the OP means by referring to luxury/art pens (even if the term isnt defined to the satisfaction of lawyers), and we can also reasonably agree that in general, a larger price purportedly gets you more of *something*: be it workmanship, better art, better performance, better pride of ownership or better bragging rights. Emphasis on "purportedly" - obviously, not everyone will find that value proposition attractive, but enough do.

 

And yes, of course the manufacturers of the products are putting forward their version of art. The purchase happens if I, the buyer, agree with what they are putting forward. The purchase fails if i dont. And of course there is not going to be a universal consensus - that is why some people buy 912s, some people buy Montblanc Writer Editions and other people buy Namikis.

The question is - IF you could spend it $10k on pens, how would you spend it and why? In your case, Cryptos, it is that you are happy with a 912 and dont want to spend more. That's perfectly fine.

Edited August 13, 2014 by de_pen_dent

[I.M.]

If I really could spend $10k on pens without having to worry about financial ruin, I'm sure I would find a way of spending every single cent, but I doubt it would be on just one pen. I'm not much interested in jewels, or a LE merely for the sake of it being a LE. I'm very interested in one day owning a Nakaya, because of the hours of traditional craftsmanship that go into the making of one of these pens. The thought of owning a Visconti Homo Sapiens is also currently an unimaginable abstract luxury, so I would likely treat myself to one of these too. While not directly a pen, there's also a really gorgeous penwrap I've got my eyes on at the moment, but buying one right now would be absolute folly.

 

As for vintage, well as Sandy101 mentions, if a pen were on sale that had been used by a writer I revere, it's possible I might spring a thousand or more. Would I use it? I probably would, providing using it wouldn't risk it falling apart. I always found it perverse when wealthy collectors spent millions on a Stradivari that would then be kept locked up in a glass cabinet instead of being played. But there are differences in listening to somebody playing a Stradivari and reading something (presumably printed) that has been written by somebody who used a fountain pen to write it, unless of course it's all about the penmanship, and not about the words /story.

[Cryptos]

***DELETED***

 

(This was just more pointless rambling, as has been very kindly pointed out by others. )

Edited August 14, 2014 by Cryptos

[de_pen_dent]

The point being that the act of transferring money from one's own account to that of the pen seller has a distinct and significant impact on our choices. Spending actual money, for most of us, is connected to work and earning, but if I said I would give you any pen or pens upto that dollar value does this change your perspective. I think it does.

 

I bring this up just to try clarify what is actually being asked here. Is the act of spending a huge amount of money on a whim? Or is about what we really think of the so-called "Art' pens? There is a difference, in my opinion

 

It is the decision on how one would allocate a large sum of one's own money on pens (provided one could do so) - would it be on one big home run of a pen or several less expensive pens.

 

You are correct - that being given those pens would change the dynamic. I think that is why the OP is asking how we would give up our own money (when the desire to get said money's worth is stronger).

 

IMO, it's an interesting question - would have been interesting to read more replies on what people would do in such a case. As I said earlier, for me, I'd probably get a bunch of less expensive pens (probably complete my Writers Edition collection, or pick up a couple of Namiki Emperors) instead of one $10k pen. But then, there is no $10k pen out that really appeals to me - were there one i was lusting for, my thinking would be different.

Edited August 14, 2014 by de_pen_dent

[Cryptos]

***DELETED***

 

(It had to go. There was nothing a value here at all)

Edited August 14, 2014 by Cryptos

[canibanoglu]

Jar's comments are absolutely top notch, I never understand it when people say that it is impractical/weird/pointless/etc. to use a very expensive pen as a daily writer. It's a pen, a very expensive one, but still a pen and there's absolutely nothing that stops you from using that pen every day.

 

As for people saying that they would never spend that much money on a single pen, 1) that's really not what the thread is all about 2) what would you spend all that money on? If you are in a position to spend that much money on a pen, chances are that it will not have an impact on your life at all.

 

And what's the horrible thing about spending all that money on one *single* pen while spending that money on several pens is such a good idea? That writing with a very expensive pen every day doesn't make much sense (to you)? That's highly subjective. I'd rather write everyday with a pen that I love.

 

As far as the discussion about "does art have to be expensive?", I really don't see the point. As de_pen_dent says, all it takes is one person willing to pay 10 to X times more than the others.

[Cryptos]

***DELETED***

 

(Contributed nothing, just got other's backs up)

Edited August 14, 2014 by Cryptos

[de_pen_dent]

Is it about spending the money - because if it is then the provenance of that money is important.

 

Mate, you are overthinking things, IMO. This is just an interesting little "what if", not some kind of legal document requiring pages and pages of clarification. Just make an assumption about how you ended up in that situation and post away.

[canibanoglu]

No you really don't see the point.

 

 

That is an assumption, and falls into my category #3. It also fails to address the impact that the route to acquiring that money makes on your final decision. In other words the OP is talking about a highly specific, and for most of us imaginary, situation. If the money truly was no barrier to buying the pen or pens, then why bother setting a cap or even mentioning it at all. Why not simply say "If you could choose any pen at all, what would it be?". However, the OP has decided to tie money to the acquisition of the pen or pens. And that fundamentally and profoundly changes the dynamic. Citing highly contrived conditions is unhelpful.

 

The OP needs to be clear on the question.

 

Is it about spending the money - because if it is then the provenance of that money is important.

If it is about the desirability of a pen irrespective of cost, then it depends on whatever personal reasons one has for that desire.

Does the price of the pen(s) play a part in the decision - yes, if the provenance of the money is considered, no, if the cost is no object (in which case why again mention the money).

 

I never said anything judgemental about buying one expensive pen over a bunch of cheaper ones. What I said was that irrespective of the cost I haven't found any of the very expensive pens aesthetically pleasing. Of course they may be very many more motives for buying the expensive pen (I did say my list wasn't exhaustive). For example, someone may buy to impress.

 

Anyway, I find the thread a little confusing because the question in the OP is not well framed and leaves too many factors of importance hanging.

 

The fact that it is an assumption is precisely the point. The whole thread is based on a simple assumption.

 

I never said that you advocated buying many pens over one expensive pens, but others have. My comments don't target you exclusively and I apologize if it came across that way.

 

The discussion is really veering off its original point. The question was based on an assumption and people were expected to give their subjective purchase decisions. I don't think the OP meant to control every variable that might play a role in such a purchase. Other people decided that controlling every decision criteria would be a good way to contribute to the discussion which ended up in this discussion. If people really think that they wouldn't be able to answer the question with the given inputs, then they really shouldn't be commenting on the shortcomings of the original question according to their standards of a well-defined question, they just shouldn't answer at all. Making a list of why someone might want to drop an arbitrary amount of money on a pen, discussing that it is really stupid to drop that much money on a pen(a book , a paper, a rock, a scissor, etc), and similar arguments don't add anything to the discussion.

 

The question really is simple:

 

Suppose you had $10,000 (or equivalent in local currency) and no significant expenses you had to cover.¹ You're going to spend this money on a pen, or small number of pens (not on a whole collection or line). What would you buy -- a modern luxury/art pen, a vintage/antique, something else?

1: By this I mean -- please let's avoid responses like "I'd never spend that much on a pen" or "If I had $10,000 I'd make a house payment." Those are certainly valid sentiments, but they don't address the issue I'm interested in. There's a good chance I'd spend the money on a house payment, too, but that's not what I'm asking about.

 

 

I'd say that's a well defined question, at least according to my discussion standards in my social life. I had an answer to give to that question, and I gave it. If I couldn't find an answer due to whatever reasons I might have, I simply wouldn't post. The OP explicitly stated that he wishes to avoid responses like many of the answers this question has received. In the face of such explicit instruction, the only reason I could conceive of posting such replies to this topic is commenting for the sake commenting, without striving to add something contextually meaningful to this specific discussion.

[Cryptos]

If I was in the situation where 10K was going to get spent on a pen or pens no matter what, I would probably get a few mid to low priced pens that appeal to me, because the ones that actually cost 10K for a single pen, in my most heartfelt opinion and according my personal tastes, look like they were conceived by a team of chimpanzees recovering from a psychedelic drug trial.

 

 

***Other content deleted***

 

(Why not?)

Edited August 14, 2014 by Cryptos