Vintage "smooth" Nib Vs Modern "smooth" Nib

[perth]

Last weekend, I went out to what seemed to be the only dedicated Parker boutique in my country, and tried out a Parker Duofold. I found the nib to be extremely smooth, nearly to the point of my Parker Premier's.

 

However, yesterday I received a vintage duofold in the mail which I had ordered earlier. The nib was remarkably wet, but had no hint of smoothness at all. I've done the standard process which has helped a lot, but the nib itself is nowhere near the smoothness of the modern pens I have, bar the 51 and the CF which are the smoother vintage pens that are on par with the modern pens in my collection that are very smooth.

 

A visual difference I've noticed is the style of tipping that is done on the pens. Modern ones seem to have them go "deeper", meaning that they are taller(?)/more vertical than the the vintage nib tips, which seems flatter. Of course, this may just be because of the usage of said vintage pens removed a lot of the tipping, but I find Montblancs, which have the distinctive "curved up" tipping style to be much less pleasant to write with than pens with a near literal "blob" of tipping hanging off the end of the nib.

 

I've sent a Vacumatic to be retipped, which has caused me to wonder: will the re-tipping be done, modern style, with a large blob of tipping, or more vintage style, as in just a coating of the alloy? I know that this does not necessarily affect the smoothness of a nib, but from observing my small collection, nibs with more tipping will feel smoother, at least to me.

 

Has anyone had any experience with re-tipping, and has the smoothness been comparable to that of a modern, factory nib?

[discopig]

When I got one of my vintage nibs retipped, it came back with more of a "blob" rather than the skinny "dip" tipping that looks like it barely coats the nib, usually found on vintage fountain pens. It's also buttery smooth, smoother than about all my other vintage pens, probably due to no crumbling iridium and no flat foot.

Edited April 30, 2014 by discopig

[pompa]

The tipping material is actually not a coating over the nib, it is welded onto the end and then ground into the intended shape.

Here is a video, in which you can see it, from VirtuThe3d's "Master of the Fountain Pen" series. To get "crumbling iridium" I think you would have to go really old vintage...and I don't think that a flat foot should mean less smooth but rather that the pen has a sweet spot, while the blob is more forgiving for people who can't hold the pen straight

But perhaps such shapes might be more scratchy if the tines are not properly aligned?

[Pterodactylus]

IMO how old a pen is say absolutely nothing about how smooth it is.

Vintage nib grinds demand normally better more constant writing angles, which may lead to the impression of less smoothness (if not used correctly).

 

There are not smooth vintage as well as not smooth modern nibs.

But smoothness is easily adjustable to the users preference, no matter if modern or vintage.

 

Personally I would never allow somebody to retip a vintage jewel with a fat blobby spherical blob tipping without any personality. (Only restore the vintage tipping and gind, but preferences are different)

Edited April 30, 2014 by Pterodactylus

[Bo Bo Olson]

Your vintage nib has 'iridium' micro-corrosion ie, rust from sitting around in the back of a drawer for a generation or two.

It can be smoothed....if it the tines are aligned.

 

First take your 10-12-15 X loupe and see if the tines are aligned. If you don't have one, get one...you need it 100%.

Do not go smoothing the nib with out seeing the tines are aligned.

Smoothing, very delicately...real light.... on micro-mesh...suggest starting with 8-10 seconds of 8,000 then 10 seconds of 12,000....don't need a second more.

Circles right&left, squiggles up&down, left&right. Rotating the nib at all times.

 

I seldom want butter smooth.....good and smooth the step under is nice often enough.

 

Many of my Pelikan vintage pens and a couple other makers like MB or Geha, have flat stubbish nibs...as natural...not special made Stub like old Parkers.

 

There was a pen type called Kugel/ball, it was very flatish on the bottom as '50's normal, and had a rounder tip and ball on top of the nib, for folks that wanted to write like a pencil....ball points were new.

 

Today you get fat blobby nibs, with a ball on both sides so idiots who do not have the three minutes to learn how to hold a fountain pen, or in that ball points and roller ball pens of the same make may sell more,. don't want him not to buy his next ball point from them.

They are 1/2 stiffer than before, were as once there was normal regular flex...semi-nail is sold as normal

 

I have a Townsend nail...it has to be butter smooth...it's a nail...there is no spring to the nib to give a comfortable ride.

 

Tipping was perfected for the P-51 in 1941... so anything after the war is a perfect tipping.

That before the war can be chunky...chunks can fall out if you go at it much more than removing irridium rust.

 

Do you have a loupe?....if not sell the pen....and don't waste your time. No ones eye ball can see the tipping well enough to see if it's aligned. If you start 'smoothing' a misaligned nib....you will ruin it.

95% of scratchy comes from misaligned tine tips or holding your fountain pen before the big knuckle like a ball point.

Edited April 30, 2014 by Bo Bo Olson

[watch_art]

I've had crumbling iridium on a modern Visconti nib. I was grinding a broad into an xf and the tipping just crumbled away. Lots of little bubbles in there. Really nasty.

[ac12]

Look at the SHAPE of the tipping.

A nice round sphere is likely the smoothest tipping.

 

Vintage pens had tipping in various shapes; spheres, cylinders, slabs, wedges, etc. And as was mentioned, some of the tipping appears to be a thin coat over the tip of the nib, with almost no shape to it.

If the part of the tipping that you write on is not rounded, you will get a less than smooth writing experience. Edges and angles will scratch the paper.

 

The tipping on vintage pens are likely worn by the prior owner(s), and might have a flat spot.

If your writing does not match the foot that the prior owner wore into the tipping, you will get a less than smooth writing experience. Again it is the edges and angles that scratch the paper. The trick is to round off the tip (remove the edges) without removing so much tipping material that you damage the tip.

[Florida Blue]

Until the mid 1930s, Parker Vacumatic nibs were ground and shaped by hand and will not have the blobby appearance of a modern nib. However, that should have nothing to do with the smoothness of the nib. Nib grinders removed any sharp edges on the corners and between the tines in the slit that would catch the paper and even a shaped nib had rounded edges.

 

Later on, Vac nibs were ground and shaped using a machine. It still needed to be operated by three or four men, but the tipping became more uniform in size, shape and quality. Before the mechanization of nib production, there were variances in the shape and quality of the tipping.

 

As was stated, the tipping material was not a coating, but was welded onto the nib blank. The "iridium" came in pre-formed pellets that were fused to the nib using a torch and this was also done by hand under magnification. After the pellet was attached, it would be ground to a shape ranging from needlepoint/accountant to broad stub.

 

Personally, I think the blobby tipping is used because it is less labor intensive, but you get a nib of lesser quality, or as Pterodactylus put it, with less "personality." You get fine nibs that write like a medium or even a broad, nibs with baby bottom syndrome and nibs that can be too wet. Most Vac nibs were fine or extra fine and appear to have little tipping, but in fact they were appropriately shaped for their desired line width and did not require a blob of tipping material.

[KBeezie]

I've seen a bit of both, I've felt scratchy modern pens as well as scratch vintage pens, all the same I've had smooth vintage pens and smooth modern pens.

 

I think some of the more affordable vintage ones with the very fine nib tend to be a bit scratchier than they could be now. My sheaffer craftsman with a #33 14K Gold nib is a bit scratchy even though the tines are aligned, but my Sheaffer Touchdown Admiral with a Feathertouch Accounting nib (14K Gold with platinum coating) which draws a slightly finer line than the craftsman but feels a little smoother, and then there's my MontBlanc 225 (vintage 70s) with a 'fine' nib that's a tiny bit larger than the #33 nib that is probably my smoothest around that line width. Compared to my Platinum PTL-5000 with a 14K gold nib, that writes a line almost as fine as the Touchdown, but isn't quite as smooth as the Montblanc 225.

 

I do have a Pilot Elite (vintage late 70s, early 80s) that has a steel extra fine nib that's not that bad, probably somewhere in between the MB225 and PTL5000 in terms of smoothness.

 

I haven't tried enough of them to say for sure what's what. But I do know that depending the nib, brand, condition, etc etc etc you can find super smooth or super scratchy from either era.

 

I think where it gets even more confusing is when I'm trying to find my ideal preference of soft/springy or rigid, some feedback or no feedback at all, etc.

Edited April 30, 2014 by KBeezie

[Ernst Bitterman]

I've got some vintage points that are almost too smooth to use, like walking on an air-hockey table in well-oiled roller-skates. The one that springs more quickly to mind is a 1935 Parker Moderne, because not only is it so smooth that it's hard to write sensibly, it has a little bit of flex (which usually means extra feedback) and the Moderne was a bargain model so in theory Parker wasn't paying the guys on the line to make it any more than adequate.

 

Most Vac nibs were fine or extra fine and appear to have little tipping, but in fact they were appropriately shaped for their desired line width and did not require a blob of tipping material.

 

 

The other point about this quite true observation is that the finer a tip is, the more it notices variations in the paper's texture; it's the same difference you get between riding a racing bicycle or a fat-wheeled mountain bike down the same road.

[perth]

Don't get me wrong, I do like expressiveness and some flex, but at the same time I'd rather have a smooth nail than a scratchy semi-flex, since it's for daily usage, where I need to write many pages each day.

 

Your vintage nib has 'iridium' micro-corrosion ie, rust from sitting around in the back of a drawer for a generation or two.

It can be smoothed....if it the tines are aligned.

 

First take your 10-12-15 X loupe and see if the tines are aligned. If you don't have one, get one...you need it 100%.

Do not go smoothing the nib with out seeing the tines are aligned.

Smoothing, very delicately...real light.... on micro-mesh...suggest starting with 8-10 seconds of 8,000 then 10 seconds of 12,000....don't need a second more.

Circles right&left, squiggles up&down, left&right. Rotating the nib at all times.

 

I seldom want butter smooth.....good and smooth the step under is nice often enough.

 

Many of my Pelikan vintage pens and a couple other makers like MB or Geha, have flat stubbish nibs...as natural...not special made Stub like old Parkers.

 

There was a pen type called Kugel/ball, it was very flatish on the bottom as '50's normal, and had a rounder tip and ball on top of the nib, for folks that wanted to write like a pencil....ball points were new.

 

Today you get fat blobby nibs, with a ball on both sides so idiots who do not have the three minutes to learn how to hold a fountain pen, or in that ball points and roller ball pens of the same make may sell more,. don't want him not to buy his next ball point from them.

They are 1/2 stiffer than before, were as once there was normal regular flex...semi-nail is sold as normal

 

I have a Townsend nail...it has to be butter smooth...it's a nail...there is no spring to the nib to give a comfortable ride.

 

Tipping was perfected for the P-51 in 1941... so anything after the war is a perfect tipping.

That before the war can be chunky...chunks can fall out if you go at it much more than removing irridium rust.

 

Do you have a loupe?....if not sell the pen....and don't waste your time. No ones eye ball can see the tipping well enough to see if it's aligned. If you start 'smoothing' a misaligned nib....you will ruin it.

95% of scratchy comes from misaligned tine tips or holding your fountain pen before the big knuckle like a ball point.

And no, I am not an idiot who spins his pen around like a ballpoint.

 

Maybe it's because I'm left handed? I've read somewhere that finer nibs are less pleasant for those writing with a left hand.

[KBeezie]

Maybe it's because I'm left handed? I've read somewhere that finer nibs are less pleasant for those writing with a left hand.

 

I imagine this could be an issue with vintage-used pens, since over time the nib would have worn down to the writing style of the previous user. So if they were right handed, and you start working against the worn down portion of the nib it's going to feel very scratchy compared to a new-old-stock nib. I ran into that issue with an old esterbrook nib where the person's writing style was clearly almost oblique against the right of the nib.

Edited April 30, 2014 by KBeezie

[Bo Bo Olson]

If you'd said you were left handed...it would have been easier to give you advice.

 

Depending on which of the 3-4-5 ways left handers write, you could have been advised by left handers. Some do well with modern stiff Obliques....and not with vintage obliques with a bit of flex. Could be your style of left handed writing, can not use nibs with a tad or more flex. I don't know.

 

Spin a ball point???? No idea about what that is supposed to mean. Are you talking about nib cant?

 

Right handed and holding the fountain pen like a ball point before the index finger's big knuckle.....lots, and lots and lots of folks have been told by me over the years, hold a fountain pen like a fountain pen...in no one had told them..

The pen wrote scratchy when held before the big knuckle like a pencil or ball point. It didn't write scratchy when held like a fountain pen.

[perth]

The 51 I have looks almost "oblique" when viewed, but still writes normally, if not slightly stubbish. It's still smooth, though.

Edited May 1, 2014 by perth