Nibmeisters And Others - Scratchy Vs. Nibs With "feedback"

[rishikhanna]

How would you characterize the difference between nibs that are scratchy and those that have "feedback"

[Paddler]

Scratchy means something sharp is scraping along the paper. Feedback can have two forms (sometimes both at the same time). One is plain, smooth friction where the nib seems to have a lot of drag. The other is caused by the shape of the point following the surface irregularities of the paper and transmitting vibration to the pen.

[sargetalon]

I have many F and XF nibs. Those nibs are sometimes smooth but many times have what I've heard described as "grab" or "feedback." Given the nature of the fine point, some degree of drag is to be expected and it seems less on good paper and more on cheap copy paper. I accept this. Scratchy, to me, is when the point feels like dragging a razor/nail across the page and on the extreme, almost cutting the paper, which definitely has a different feel than the "grab" I previously described. It's hard for me to explain but the difference is real. Sitting with a nibmeister while he worked on my pens really helped me to understand the concept better as I could feel the difference.

[Jadie]

Hmm...scratchy is more of a rough, drag-your-feet-across-sharp-gravel sensation.

 

Feedback is like holding a murmured conversation with someone in a crowded room.

 

And for reference, buttery smooth would be the padded silence of a snow-covered morning.

 

Depends on your tolerance for nib "noise", I'd say. Some find feedback quite comforting, traditional, familiar---I can only take a bit before it drives me crazy.

[Mesu]

Scratchy vs feedback = Annoying vs Controlled

 

Varies from person to person..

 

Even for the same person, varies for different pens, paper, etc.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Mesu

[Mickey]

It's fairly straight forward (for me). If the drag is uniform in all directions, it's feel. If the drag is in only some directions, it's scratch (misalignment, poor grind). If lightening up my touch removes the drag, its feel. If it doesn't, then it's scratch. So far, the only truly scratchy pens I've encountered were misaligned or poorly ground.

 

BTW, I'm fussy, with a light a light touch, prefer dry inks (iron gall types, especially), and have my pens set up to write on the dry side of normal. Thus, I've had to refine (polish, really) the grind of nearly every pen I've ever owned, including those set up (or ground) by our most esteemed nib grinders, mostly because (here's my theory) alignment shifts (settles in) over the first couple of weeks of sustained use, as manufacturing stresses relax and the nib settles into the feed. Let me stress, these are minute touch ups performed over the course of days and weeks and using only the finest abrasives. It's more like stropping than lapping. (I'm similarly patient fine-tuning the alignment: tweak, write for a few days, repeat as necessary.) Once a pen adjusts, however, I've almost never had to touch up alignment or tip polish.

[JessR45]

To me, the difference is in the effort to propel the nib on the paper. If the nib is scratchy, there is a noticeable drag I feel, and I am actually aware of the force necessary (I am a super light writer). Feedback is good to me if I can feel the paper but the nib still glides along smoothly. I cannot stand scratchy nibs, they just interrupt my flow of thoughts while writing.

[Namru]

Feedback is consistant scratchiness for me. Scratchiness would be if it dragged more in one direction than others.

[redbike]

If the drag is uniform in all directions, it's feel. If the drag is in only some directions, it's scratch (misalignment, poor grind).

I find this a very helpful distinction, thanks. Choice of paper makes a huge difference, in my experience. Cheap paper will likely increase uniform drag on a nib that has "feedback," and might actually tear on a "scratchy" or misaligned nib.

[ethernautrix]

The difference for me is this: I like feedback; I don't like scratchiness.

 

Feedback feels more like writing with a pencil - in other words, not a buttery smooth glide (which I don't like).

[ac12]

I generally agree with the others.

But for me, I'm simple, if it feels scratchy, direction does not matter...it is scratchy. Think of trying to write with a needle.

Drag to me is like writing with a dry pen. Mostly friction of the pen on the paper. Or as ethernautrix said, like a pencil.

 

As for scratchy, there are 2 types

1 - If the scratchy is in a particular direction only, indicating alignment or tip issues, or

2 - If the scratchy is in all directions, indicating to me a tip issue.

 

I have a XF pen that I was confused about. It felt scratchy but all the time. I finally started writing lines in different directions, and by a very small difference, I could feel a difference in one direction vs. the others. So I think the tip is "very slightly" misaligned, enough to feel, but not enough to see with my 8x loupe. I need to get more magnification to see the tip and align it.

As for the "all direction" scratchy, I probably need to polish the tip, but again I have to wait until I get a higher magnification loupe, to see what I am doing. But first the misalignment has to be fixed.

 

In my limited experience, western XF and F tips are more likely to be scratchy than Japanese and Chinese XF and F tips. It seems to me that the Japanese and Chinese tips are more rounded and polished.

 

And yes paper makes a BIG difference. I had some paper that I just could NOT write with my F or XF pens, the pens felt too scratchy to write with. And it was scratchy, not drag. I had to use my wet M tip pens on that paper. The scratchy feel irritates the heck out of me, I like the tip to glide nice and smooth over the paper, with very little or no apparent drag, and no scratchiness. And for that I need SMOOTH hard surface paper.

 

There is decent inexpensive paper, so you do not have to buy the expensive Clairefontaine paper. Granted they are not as good as Clairefontaine, but they are acceptable...for me.

There are several threads on the subject of inexpensive/affordable FP friendly paper.

Edited August 27, 2013 by ac12

[de_pen_dent]

Feedback feels more like writing with a pencil

 

That's a really good way to describe it!

[tonybelding]

I also think that "feedback" is a pencil-like feeling. Scratchiness, on the other hand, feels like the pen is snagging on the paper. Scratchiness is bad, feedback is a matter of personal taste.

 

My own taste runs toward smooth nibs that glide on the page, although it is possible to be too slick.

[lennymarchese]

Scratchy to me means that the nib is introducing roughness, feedback is the ability to feel the texture of the paper.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Mickey +10 on the thought of the nib relaxing from manufacture stress.

Or relaxing to fit one's hand.

That brings up the thought the old adage from back in radio days, that the pen wrote to one's hand.

There for if some one else used it even for a moment it could/would? change again???

 

It's a great thought that one should write in a nib a bit before grabbing the micro-mesh right off the bat.

 

I don't have any problems with western F nibs, the EF nibs require more care by me in finding the tiny sweet spot. For nibs tinier than western EF, I don't have any, don't want any. I could only use vivid supersaturated inks to even see such a tiny line.

 

Then again I seldom use EF nibs, even though I have a full set, nail, regular flex, a couple semi-flex and a couple flexi. I might have an EF in easy full flex, but I don't have it mounted. It did not seem worth the trouble to do so. The vintage F or F-EF seem good enough for me.

 

Super tiny nib points require finding and maintaining a perfect hold. A bit off and one tine gets more stress, bends the one tine more catching the paper.

I would think if one is going to use a super tiny nib, that Binder's Waverly tip would give more satisfaction in the tipping is extended, making for a longer sweet spot. That would fit what ever angle the pen is being held easier.

 

 

I prefer good and smooth to butter smooth, mostly. Good and smooth is no drag.

 

I like the description, like writing with a pencil, for feed back.

 

Scratchy seems to be 95% tine misalignment, & or holding the fountain pen like a ball point.

The other 5% could well be holding the pen wrong for it's grind angle...that would be very noticeable in super tiny nibs, more than wider nibs.

[Ytland]

A nib is scratchy if the geometry of the tip is wrong. Then there's inconsistent feel as you rotate the nib through small angles, or change direction.

 

It's got feedback if the nib is slightly less microscopically polished (like Sailor nibs, for example), but has an otherwise well-formed tip.

 

I frequently get requests to add feedback, which mainly involves delicately 'roughing up' (oxymoron, I know) the tip from its present state. Smoothing is usually a little more complicated...

 

Hope this helps.

Jack

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ytland

[rishikhanna]

I realize now that some of the pens i thought were scratchy merely had feedback.