Ig Ink -- Permanent Or Not

[den_lim]

I have most people say that IG inks are permanent.

IG inks however are acidic.

I find this strange since most people look for acid-free paper and inks if they want the paper to last a long time.

So, if I use IG inks, will it eat the paper in the long run?

[gks]

I think you're confusing "permanent" with "archival"

 

If you need archival quality writing then you want something pretty pH neutral. However, I believe iron gall inks are typically (inherently?) more water proof. I'm not so sure permanent is what I'd call iron gall, but water resistant?

 

I'm sure others will have more to say here, but figured I could at least add my 2 cents.

[fiberdrunk]

It depends on various factors. Not all iron gall ink recipes are stable. Some did truly eat holes in the paper (some of Bach's manuscripts are utterly ruined by the iron gall ink they were written with). Dr. Stark, a chemist in the 1800's, did testing on iron gall inks for 20 years, trying to find the most stable recipe. He found that a formula of 3 parts galls to 2 parts copperas was the most stable. There are some stable iron gall manuscripts that have survived for centuries, despite the acid-- alas, we don't really know what those recipes are. Governments have had their standard formulas for permanent iron gall inks for their most important documents-- do we know yet if they will truly stand the test of time? Additives like logwood (which make the ink even blacker) can also degrade the ink. Using a metal dip nib can also jeopardize an ink's permanency because the metal can cause a chemical reaction with the acidity of the ink (it's better to use a feather quill or glass pen with iron gall inks). So you can see, there are many factors involved that can cause an iron gall ink to become unstable. There's the paper's pH and fiber strength to consider, too.

 

I don't believe most of the commercial fountain pen iron gall inks are very permanent (waterproof, yes). We have no way of knowing what their gallotannic acid to iron sulfate ratio is. But my own sunshine tests on them show that they fade. The most permanent safe-for-fountain-pens iron gall ink that you are going to find is pharmacist's blue-black iron gall document ink (he's a FPN member here who has done a lot of his own experimenting to find the most permanent ink). That one hasn't shown any fading yet after 5 months in my sunshine tests, compared with the commercial iron gall inks.

Edited October 10, 2012 by fiberdrunk

[Silent Speaker]

I have most people say that IG inks are permanent.

IG inks however are acidic.

I find this strange since most people look for acid-free paper and inks if they want the paper to last a long time.

So, if I use IG inks, will it eat the paper in the long run?

Iron Gall inks have been used for centuries blah blah blah the usual spiel about them.

 

Question:

To what IG ink are you referring?

 

Stuff for dip pens/calligraphy ink?

Homebrew that one gets from an old recipe book?

or the prepacked sort like those offered by:

Diamine

Ecclesiastical Stationery Supplies

Lamy (blue-black only/ Non-US)

Pelikan (blue-black only/ Non-US)

Rohrer & Klinger

Montblanc

et. al.

 

If the latter, they are significantly less potent than the stuff that you'll find eating their way through medieval manuscripts, most homebrew (not Pharmacist's wonderful looking stuff), and those for calligraphy.

 

And on that:

 

will it eat the paper in the long run?

Define "long run".

 

It's not going to eat the paper by next week, but in a few centuries, perhaps, perhaps not; we don't know how this newly formulated IG stuff will react in the long run (in "the old days" IG inks were produced by monks in a not-too-scientific or consistent manner - sometimes more acidic, sometimes less; the modern stuff is more consistent and, apparently, a lot less harsh compared to their predecessors).

 

I think (but am not sure if this has now changed) that the UK and German Govt's require the signing of say, marriage certificates, with IG ("Registrars" and "Urkundentinte").

 

Alternatives:

Noodler's super duper ultra-permanent inks

Sailor "nano" carbon particle inks

Platinum carbon particle inks

That Sepia ink (real cuttlefish kind but formulated to be safe for FP's) from that one Japanese company whose name escapes me.

 

In the passage of time, who knows how long any of these will react?

[Silent Speaker]

It depends on various factors.

Basically, this (and the rest of fiberdrunk's post).

 

Check out the ink comparison threads to see light fastness and water-resistance; some IG's hold out better than others: the R&K ones will fade eventually in sunlight, but the Diamine kind won't fade as much (and fiberdrunk has vouched for Pharmacist's stuff as being the best IG as far as permanence).

 

Fading in sunlight doesn't mean so much IMO if what's written stays closed in a book, however. (getting the full UV blast of the sun day in and day out for a period of time tends to fade everything)

Edited October 10, 2012 by Silent Speaker

[XiaoMG]

I don't believe most of the commercial fountain pen iron gall inks are very permanent (waterproof, yes). We have no way of knowing what their gallotannic acid to iron sulfate ratio is. But my own sunshine tests on them show that they fade. The most permanent safe-for-fountain-pens iron gall ink that you are going to find is pharmacist's blue-black iron gall document ink (he's a FPN member here who has done a lot of his own experimenting to find the most permanent ink). That one hasn't shown any fading yet after 5 months in my sunshine tests, compared with the commercial iron gall inks.

Thanks for this. I have a bottle of Urkundentinte but haven't tested its fade properties yet. I know Salix, Scabiosa, Turkish Night, and ESS Registrar's Ink all showed fading in a month-long test of mine, but it's nice to know Urkundentinte may hold up better. I was quite surprised when I noticed Diamine Ancient Copper survived much better than ESSRI.

[den_lim]

Hmmm. I use Montblanc MB. So what FP ink will not fade in let's say 3-5 years?

[XiaoMG]

Hmmm. I use Montblanc MB. So what FP ink will not fade in let's say 3-5 years?

My champions are Sailor's Kiwaguro and Seiboku, Noodler's...well quite a few (but not all) of the non-waterproof Noodler's inks hold up very well with only barely noticeable fading. Noodler's Black was a champ, and Kung Te Cheng is right up there as well. Some of the Iroshizuku line survives well for a few months, but may not fare so well in longer tests. I'm willing to bet the Platinum Carbon Black and Pigmented inks are excellent, though I haven't tried them.

 

If you keep them in a closed book, the majority of inks you can buy will be readable in years or even decades. The above is assuming lots of direct sunlight/UV exposure, which breaks down inks quickly.

[fiberdrunk]

Hmmm. I use Montblanc MB. So what FP ink will not fade in let's say 3-5 years?

 

Some good contenders are Noodler's Heart of Darkness, Levenger Raven Black, Noodler's Kung Te-Chung, Higgins Fountain Pen India, Winsor & Newton Sepia, and Noodler's Bad Green Gator are just a few I've tested with excellent results. These have held up very well. I also like to use pigmented liquid acrylic inks (Magic Color from the U.K. and vintage Rotring ArtistColor), but these can only be used in certain fountain pens without clogging, such as the Rotring ArtPen (and I have to use designated ink converters for each color as they tend to stain, and you never want to let these inks dry out in the pen). These are extremely permanent and waterproof. Little or no fading with them and they are acid-free.

Edited October 10, 2012 by fiberdrunk

[pharmacist]

I don't believe most of the commercial fountain pen iron gall inks are very permanent (waterproof, yes). We have no way of knowing what their gallotannic acid to iron sulfate ratio is. But my own sunshine tests on them show that they fade. The most permanent safe-for-fountain-pens iron gall ink that you are going to find is pharmacist's blue-black iron gall document ink (he's a FPN member here who has done a lot of his own experimenting to find the most permanent ink). That one hasn't shown any fading yet after 5 months in my sunshine tests, compared with the commercial iron gall inks.

Thanks for this. I have a bottle of Urkundentinte but haven't tested its fade properties yet. I know Salix, Scabiosa, Turkish Night, and ESS Registrar's Ink all showed fading in a month-long test of mine, but it's nice to know Urkundentinte may hold up better. I was quite surprised when I noticed Diamine Ancient Copper survived much better than ESSRI.

 

The fact my fancy coloured IG inks rely more on the dye compound and less on the permanent IG body, is the reason of the slightly faded writing. Urkundentinte is the complete opposite: here the dye compound is just added to make the initially invisible IG body visible to the eye. The final colour is the IG body and the dye will fade away after a few years. I could make Urkundentitne with a green or orange dye, but with the high IG concentration the final writing will be black, so you will not be able to see the initial colour at all. By reducing the IG body significantly and dramatically increasing the dye part of the ink, you can enjoy a nice color and shading. This is intentionally formulated, so some fading is totally normal, when the writing is exposed to direct sunlight/UV-rays .

[XiaoMG]

The fact my fancy coloured IG inks rely more on the dye compound and less on the permanent IG body, is the reason of the slightly faded writing. Urkundentinte is the complete opposite: here the dye compound is just added to make the initially invisible IG body visible to the eye. The final colour is the IG body and the dye will fade away after a few years. I could make Urkundentitne with a green or orange dye, but with the high IG concentration the final writing will be black, so you will not be able to see the initial colour at all. By reducing the IG body significantly and dramatically increasing the dye part of the ink, you can enjoy a nice color and shading. This is intentionally formulated, so some fading is totally normal, when the writing is exposed to direct sunlight/UV-rays .

I was not too surprised at Turkish Night's fading; I expected that after seeing how Scabiosa and Salix faded. I was much more surprised by ESS Registrar's Ink fading, as it seemed to be much more IG-concentrated, and darkened and lost its dye component very quickly in a way similar to Urkundentinte. I am glad to hear that Urkundentinte will perform better, but I guess I should add it to my tests.

[wallylynn]

If you keep them in a closed book, the majority of inks you can buy will be readable in years or even decades. The above is assuming lots of direct sunlight/UV exposure, which breaks down inks quickly.

 

I have journal entries written in BSB (notorious for extremely fast fading in sunlight) and they look fine. 2-3 year old notes on my corkboard have faded but still very legible.

 

Montblanc MB fades in sunlight I was sad to experience. But again, out of sunlight, everything is fine.

[den_lim]

would a uv coat help protect MB MB?