Super Ink Or Super Goo?

[Messmer]

If I mix noodler's bulletproof blue like BBK ink with Iron Gall component. Would it make a super Iron Gall? Or a pure junk stuff?

[mcbender]

I suspect that would be unlikely to work out, although I have never tried it and don't have any advanced chemistry knowledge to bring to bear on it...

 

I'm not sure what adding an iron-gall component to Noodler's bulletproof would actually get you, though, even if you could mix them successfully. Iron-gall is actually damaging to the paper in the long term (~100 years or so), and if you already get permanence/durability from the bulletproof component, I think adding it would just be a fancy way to shoot yourself in the foot.

 

That said, I do wonder what Nathan's take on an iron-gall ink would be like. I wonder if he could be convinced to make one?

Edited January 31, 2012 by mcbender

[lapis]

What seems to be the problem? Take a drop or 20 of each and mix them together, keep your eye on them for a day or 2, and we'll see!

 

Mike

 

 

[dgturner]

I suspect that would be unlikely to work out, although I have never tried it and don't have any advanced chemistry knowledge to bring to bear on it...

 

I'm not sure what adding an iron-gall component to Noodler's bulletproof would actually get you, though, even if you could mix them successfully. Iron-gall is actually damaging to the paper in the long term (~100 years or so), and if you already get permanence/durability from the bulletproof component, I think adding it would just be a fancy way to shoot yourself in the foot.

 

That said, I do wonder what Nathan's take on an iron-gall ink would be like. I wonder if he could be convinced to make one?

 

I can tell you that Nathan has said absolutely not -- something about why make an ink that is just going to destroy the paper eventually. While i completely respect Nathan, i really like the look of Iron Gall inks... and still want a Noodler's one... IIRC it cane from a "Write Time" interview with the Goulets.

 

 

Although pharmasist's (here on FPN) ink is superb.

[wallylynn]

I've spiked my Lamy Bl-Bk with Manhattan Blue (not bulletproof though) many times, and it didn't clog.

[Messmer]

Iron gall can damage the paper. Old iron gall formula at 80 Celsius with a relative humidity of 90 will do it in 14 days. I saw it done by conservation lab. But new iron gall are less prone to that. I think BSB with iron gall will turn into a big problem. Acid + base = salt. But pH neutral ink + acid?

[wallylynn]

But pH neutral ink + acid?

According to Elementary school chemistry, acid+neutral = not-as-acid. I suppose the iron will start to come out, as if it were drying. (ignoring whatever other reactions might occur)

[Messmer]

But pH neutral ink + acid?

According to Elementary school chemistry, acid+neutral = not-as-acid. I suppose the iron will start to come out, as if it were drying. (ignoring whatever other reactions might occur)

If I remember, oxigen+acid+iron=rust. So technically, it may work. But I kind of ask the question if we have a chemist around. My idea was that you have a double permanence type.

[Sandy1]

Hi,

 

I mixed 1 part of ESSRI into 1 part of water, then added 1 part of Noodler's b-p Lexington Gray.

 

As no event horizon was noticed, it seemed OK. But if you see a glow in the sky that's not the sunrise, then things may have gone pear-shaped.

 

I'll try some in a pen, then post results.

 

Bye,

S1

Edited February 1, 2012 by Sandy1

[lapis]

If I remember, oxigen+acid+iron=rust...

The main cause of rust is a reaction between iron and oxygen, without an acid. This usually takes place where at least some water is present. But if you put iron in water and remove all gases dissolved in it, the iron won't rust. The "problem" is that since the oxygen gas necessary for rusting is reduced, thus forming hydroxide ions (alkalies), you can see that this benefits even more by the presence of acids. Long story short... rust needs oxygen in (or around) water, although acids are not necessary... but acids promote rusting. Iron gall inks are usually acidic, so that they can, in principle, attack iron. Don't forget that most pen nibs today (at least on halfways decent FPs) are not made out of highly pure iron but out of stainless steel, often with a bit of rhodium or iridium to increase hardness and to decrease solubility (two different things).

 

Whew

[handwriter]

Iron gall inks are necessarily acidic, the reason being that if the medium (the solution) is not strongly acidic, iron precipitates (forms a solid) as hydrated iron oxide (sometimes referred to as iron hydroxide). So the reason why in the old times they added such things to ink as sulfuric acid was to keep the iron in solution. As a side-effect, unfortunately, problems with the paper and corrosion of steel nibs would arise.

I do not know what is in the modern inks that are considered to be iron gall, but wouldn't be surprised if they are strongly acidic.

[Messmer]

If I remember, oxigen+acid+iron=rust...

The main cause of rust is a reaction between iron and oxygen, without an acid. This usually takes place where at least some water is present. But if you put iron in water and remove all gases dissolved in it, the iron won't rust. The "problem" is that since the oxygen gas necessary for rusting is reduced, thus forming hydroxide ions (alkalies), you can see that this benefits even more by the presence of acids. Long story short... rust needs oxygen in (or around) water, although acids are not necessary... but acids promote rusting. Iron gall inks are usually acidic, so that they can, in principle, attack iron. Don't forget that most pen nibs today (at least on halfways decent FPs) are not made out of highly pure iron but out of stainless steel, often with a bit of rhodium or iridium to increase hardness and to decrease solubility (two different things).

 

Whew

I know it rust is link to oxigen and water. That why I oil my Laguiole knife one time a month with pharmaceutical lab quality heavy mineral oil. But as you said, acid are an accelerator of the proces.

 

My idea was if you have a Iron Gall plus a blue dye that stain cellulose and resist acid. You have a double staining porcess on the paper.

[Sandy1]

I suspect that would be unlikely to work out, although I have never tried it

 

What seems to be the problem?

 

I can tell you that Nathan has said absolutely not --

 

 

I mixed 1 part of ESSRI into 1 part of water, then added 1 part of Noodler's b-p Lexington Gray.

 

I'll try some in a pen, then post results.

http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy116/Sandy1-1/FPN_2012/Mixes%20-%20ESSRI%209%20and%20Up/ffd74b10.jpg

 

http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy116/Sandy1-1/FPN_2012/Mixes%20-%20ESSRI%209%20and%20Up/477b97e1.jpg

 

[Uncle Red]

Neat Sandy! I like the color of the mix. How long was it allowed to darken before the scan?

[psfred]

You may or may not get a usable ink by mixing iron-gallate ink with any of the Noodler's regular or bulletproof inks. I'm not sure at all what is in all of them, there may be chemical reactions.

 

If you mix any of the Baystate inks with iron-gallate inks I would expect a mess, probably some precipitation, and clogging.

 

Iron-gallate inks MUST be acidic, or the oxidation reaction will occur in the bottle, leaving very finely divided black muck suspended in fluid, not ink that darkens on exposure to air. At pH higher than about 4, I don't think the oxidation reaction will occur because the gallic acid will not be in solution as the free acid, also required for the chemical reaction that produces the black ferri-gallate to precipitate.

 

Much above pH 7 and the iron will precipitate very rapidly.

 

If you want more color in your ferro-gallate inks, add some acidic ink, not pH neutral ones.

 

Peter

[Sandy1]

Neat Sandy! I like the color of the mix. How long was it allowed to darken before the scan?

Hi,

 

The mixing was done in a dappen glass, which then sat (under web-cam surveillance) for about eight hours prior to writing. The written sample was scanned very shortly after the ink was dry. Its appearance seems stable. If it changes dramatically or spontaneously combusts or eats the local moggies, I'll post back.

 

Bye,

S1