About Twsbi Diamond Ink Bottle "leak"

[speedy]

Pls refer below link and other related (if any)

 

http://www.fountainp...83#entry2157683

 

So I have to make some more picture and video to explain.

Philip has written below message for me to post. (you know my poor English, hahaha!)

 

"Dear TWSBI Customers,

 

First, we want to thank everyone for such great support and trust with our brand.

 

Because of this, we thought we would give a brief explanation regarding the "leaky" ink bottle situation, that seems to be situating right now.

 

If anyone has an ink bottle that completely leaks out from between the anodized cap and glass bottle when the bottle is completely sealed, then it is a defect, we will replace it.

 

However, if the ink bottle only has ink on the thread of the glass bottle or on the top of the glass bottle, and the ink doesn't actually leak out of the bottle when sealed together, this is NOT defective.

 

Explanation:

 

1. Every bottle will leak out a little bit of its content within it, like opening up a soda bottle, there is always a little bit of soda on top of the bottle and cap if you flip it around a few times.

 

When opening other ink bottles, for example from Parker and other brands, there's always a little bit of ink on top of the bottle itself and sometimes around the threads when taking off its cap. This is very normal. It is very difficult and near impossible to have a glass bottle that does not operate as such. The flatness at the top of the glass does not have an effect on leaks, unless it is terribly unsmooth even to touch and sight.

 

2. The small ventilation hole on top of the anodized cap is there for a very usefull reason. When the 540 fountain pen is connected to the top of the ink bottle for refill: First we have to unscrew the end cap. During this process, the piston is pushed all the way down towards the nib of the pen, along with air being pushed through. Second we screw back tight the end cap. During this second process, the piston is pulled back up towards the end of the pen, along with the ink required. Therefore, the ventilation whole at the top of the cap, is for the air being pushed through to have an exit. If the ventilation whole was not there, in certain condition (we will have a video to explain this), ink would explode out due to the raised pressure of air within the bottle. (Tested at factory...Not a pretty sight).

 

Because of this, if a small quantity of ink is found within the top of the ventilation hole, that is normal. It is actually needed to keep the pressure outside and inside the bottle equal during fountain pen refills.

 

We hope this explains the "leaky" ink bottle situation. As always, we have the upmost respect for everyone's concerns and opinions. If anyone is experiencing an actual leak out of the bottle when sealed together, please do not hesitate to let us know. We will replace it free of charge. Our number one goal is from the start and still is to provide quality products and service to everyone we have to opportunity to encounter. Thank you again everyone for the constant support in TWSBI.

 

Philip Wang

 

www.twsbi.com

 

Inspired by Writing

 

"

 

 

Please see below diagram to understand the critical point of how the "seal" works

The level of the house floor, table top surface or the ink bottle base (that touch the table) has nothing to do with the sealing

 

 

Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch

 

Below few photo are my own ink bottle after use

 

Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch

 

Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch

 

Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch

 

I just made this video clip to explain why we need the ventilation hole. In most of the cases it is not serving any function, unless you fooling around the bottle like I did in the video

 

http://www.facebook....260034324044512

 

 

Let me add some more photos I posted before

 

Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch

 

Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch

 

Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch

 

Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch

 

Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch

 

Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch

Edited November 16, 2011 by speedy

[SamCapote]

Pls refer below link and other related (if any)

 

http://www.fountainp...83#entry2157683

 

"Dear TWSBI Customers,

 

First, we want to thank everyone for such great support and trust with our brand. Because of this, we thought we would give a brief explanation regarding the "leaky" ink bottle situation, that seems to be situating right now.

 

If anyone has an ink bottle that completely leaks out from between the anodized cap and glass bottle when the bottle is completely sealed, then it is a defect, we will replace it.

 

However, if the ink bottle only has ink on the thread of the glass bottle or on the top of the glass bottle, and the ink doesn't actually leak out of the bottle when sealed together, this is NOT defective.

 

Explanation:

 

1. Every bottle will leak out a little bit of its content within it, like opening up a soda bottle, there is always a little bit of soda on top of the bottle and cap if you flip it around a few times. When opening other ink bottles, for example from Parker and other brands, there's always a little bit of ink on top of the bottle itself and sometimes around the threads when taking off its cap. This is very normal. It is very difficult and near impossible to have a glass bottle that does not operate as such. The flatness at the top of the glass does not have an effect on leaks, unless it is terribly unsmooth even to touch and sight.

 

Please see below diagram to understand the critical point of how the "seal" works

The level of the house floor, table top surface or the ink bottle base (that touch the table) has nothing to do with the sealing

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Speedy/Philip, thank you for your excellent customer service and fast responses. I will make what I consider objective comments based upon my observations and measurement test photographs in the above linked thread, where 100% of my bottles leaked the test water down the sides. If my post does not sound fair and objective, I apologize in advance, and have read it five times in an attempt to be as objective as possible.

I have no issue with the top vent hole. If there is an occasional droplet extruded from that hole, it is minor and did not lead to leakage down into the threads and outside of the cap.

 

My sole issue is that the top sealing edge of the glass bottle is not flat and flush, and cannot make an adequate mating seal with the lid the way it was made. Since there was no broken glass or rough irregular surface, I did not expect to have any leakage into the glass threads starting with a perfectly dry cap and dry glass 100% of the time with simple inversion, or even if I kept the bottle upside down for a short period.

 

• I can understand the transfer of ink/liquid from the styrofoam to the bottle edges, and down the threads with repeated removal and replacement of the cap with all bottles. That is also not my concern or the issue I am describing.

• I do not feel it is an accurate comparison to say that soda and other ink bottles have the same "normal" leakage problem as the TWSBI bottle. When I first open a new ink bottle, or carefully open a soda bottle, there is not ink/soda all over and down onto the threads. I can store new bottles of ink/soda upside down for months, without any leakage outside of the cap. If the TWSBI problem was "normal," then 100% of ink/soda bottles would leak during shipment--which does not happen. I can even store bottles of ink that have been repeatedly opened, and having ink onto the threads--upside down or even vigorously shaking to mix sediment that is found in many inks--and there will be no ink leaking out and onto the bottle. This is because conventional bottles have a flat, flush glass top that makes a secure mating seal when closed.

• Production bottle manufacturing has addressed the issue of making sure there is a flat, flush sealing edge of the glass without irregular raised portions. Making a custom bottle must address this, and sand down any raised portions of the top glass sealing surface so it provides a 100% flat, even mating surface with the seal. What I am saying in the custom TWSBI bottles is that 100% of my six bottles have the issue (to various degrees of severity) shown in the part of your diagram I cropped below. This indicates that your bottle maker did not check and flatten the top sealing surface.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/Inks/TWSBI/TwisBot8.jpg

 

• If people want to keep their bottles and understand that they will need to watch for leakage and/or wipe off the glass threads and cap sections, because otherwise they are aesthetically very pleasing, that is their right. I use a lot of Noodler's eternal/permanent inks, and I would not want to be worried about leakage and staining of tables where I store this bottle.

• I see this as somewhat comparable to the initial TWSBI 530 Diomond piston seal which had enough leakage failure rate that you made a revision. In my humble opinion, these bottles need to have their glass sealing top edge flattened and flush, and should not be presented as the normal way bottles are made.

[fabrimedeiros]

SamCapote,

 

Probably a thicker styrofoam circle would fix the problem, wouldn't it?

 

 

Edited: I don't have a TWSBI Ink Bottle yet, but my other ink bottles always have the glass threads with a bit of ink, which is not a sufficient amount of ink to flow on the external wall or over the label.

I'm not suggesting that you should switch the styrofoam by yourself. If they're leaking TWSBI will replace them.

Edited November 16, 2011 by fabrimedeiros

[dex138]

SamCapote,

 

Probably a thicker styrofoam circle would fix the problem, wouldn't it?

 

 

Edited: I don't have a TWSBI Ink Bottle yet, but my other ink bottles always have the glass threads with a bit of ink, which is not a sufficient amount of ink to flow on the external wall or over the label.

+1

 

 

I think a thicker gasket is probably the most practical and least expensive fix to this problem. Trying to grind down the sealing lip of the bottle could conceivably cause more problems. If you grind off too much the center cap will tighten onto that ridge below the threads instead of sealing onto the lip.

 

 

[SamCapote]

Well my request is to return/refund five, and keep the one with the most level glass lip for posterity. I'm going to wet sand it with some automotive sandpaper I have and buff it out. It doesn't need much taken off--just the raised edge on one side. You can see the raised location clearly by pressing the bottle top onto a sheet of carbon copy paper facing down onto a tablet. The raised side leaves a more pronounced carbon mark.

[WOBentley]

I followed up this discussion with a test of my own bottles. I have 7 of them ( :embarrassed_smile: ) and none have a "dripping leak". In other words, none of them (tested with water) dripped any water down the outside of the bottle. I held inverted for close to 5 seconds, likely longer than I would do with actual ink and three of them had no trace of water on the top of the glass lip either and no water on the threads. The other 4 had very small "drops/spots" where water got on the top of the lip of the bottle. I looked at the gaskets on mine and there is a full ring imprint from the bottle so possibly it is the gasket material. I will say that the amt of ink (water) on those lips was extremely minimal. Blotted with a paper towel it made a 2-4mm (depending on the bottle) "blot spot" on a paper towel. I became curious thinking about this and have a Parken Penman bottle that contains the remnants of a broken Diamine Chocolate Brown bottle (about 25cc) in it...so I did the same test. Way more ink on the lip than water on the TWSBI lips. I transferred the Diamine chocolate brown to one of the TWSBI bottles and repeated the test with water in the Penman bottle and the lip was loaded with water, way more than the TWSBI bottles, but again none on the threads...

So, what is the take-away here? Well, #1 I do not doubt in any way Sam's or anyone else's results. Mine are also clearly documented. It would seem that there is indeed some variability in the manufacturing tolerances. In my case likely no real action is needed. I wipe down the rim of Noodlers/Diamine/Cd'A/Iro etc. bottles when I fill pens from them so I could do that with these too. I also could experiment with thicker, and possibly slightly denser gasket material. I suspect that will work for most of the bottles out there. However for the drippier ones that some seem to have, replacement will likely be the only option unless you are equipped with precision glass grinding equipment (which strangely since my wife is a Glass Artist I may well be...haven't asked her).

I think the final take away is that everyone should test their bottles (preferrably with water) before they invert them over an important document or piece of furniture!

Edited November 18, 2011 by WOBentley

[SamCapote]

I followed up tyhis discussion with a test of my own bottles. I have 7 of them ( :embarrassed_smile: ) and none have a "dripping leak". In other words, none of them (tested with water) dripped any water down the outside of the bottle. I held inverted for close to 5 seconds, likely longer than I would do with actual ink and three of them had no trace of water on the top of the glass lip either and no water on the threads. The other 4 had very small "drops/spots" where water got on the top of the lip of the bottle. I looked at the gaskets on mine and there is a full ring imprint from the bottle so possibly it is the gasket material. I will say that the amt of ink (water) on those lips was extremely minimal. Blotted with a paper towel it made a 2-4mm (depending on the bottle) "blot spot" on a paper towel. I became curious thinking about this and have a Parken Penman bottle that contains the remnants of a broken Diamine Chocolate Brown bottle (about 25cc) in it...so I did the same test. Way more ink on the lip than water on the TWSBI lips. I transferred the Diamine chocolate brown to one of the TWSBI bottles and repeated the test with water in the Penman bottle and the lip was loaded with water, way more than the TWSBI bottles, but again none on the threads...

So, what is the take-away here? Well, #1 I do not doubt in any way Sam's or anyone else's results. Mine are also clearly documented. It would seem that there is indeed some variability in the manufacturing tolerances. In my case likely no real action is needed. I wipe down the rim of Noodlers/Diamine/Cd'A/Iro etc. bottles when I fill pens from them so I could do that with these too. I also could experiment with thicker, and possibly slightly denser gasket material. I suspect that will work for most of the bottles out there. However for the drippier ones that some seem to have, replacement will likely be the only option unless you are equipped with precision glass grinding equipment (which strangely since my wife is a Glass Artist I may well be...haven't asked her).

I think the final take away is that everyone should test their bottles (preferrably with water) before they invert them over an important document or piece of furniture!

 

WO, first I really appreciate other people checking my work, and that my issue is just with the one specific thing (not the air vent, etc.).

 

I did not have any bottle "drip" an entire drop if I held it sideways. I did have water leaking through the entire thread structure, and onto the neck of every bottle when cap was removed, making it obvious that further turning, or actual shaking (if there was a sediment that I wanted to mix) would not work with these bottles. There are four things I see that may be different in our tests.

 

 

1) I inverted and held upside down for more like 10 seconds, and repeated this at least 5-10 times. There were some that leaked the water after 5 inversions, the others I tested longer, and with more inversions. I wanted to simulate a possibility that one of these bottles might get knocked over, and it would be a while before being discovered. IMHO, it should not leak any more than an ink bottle should not leak if turned on its side or upside down.

 

 

2) I made sure to fill them with cold water leaving 1/3 to 1/4th as an air space. I wanted to make sure my hand would heat up the air similar to a winter time scenario. I wrapped my hand all around the bottle to exaggerate this effect. If you use more lukewarm water, and had only fingertip contact with the bottle, there was likely not as much water leaking into the threads.

 

 

3) I was literally the first or second person who placed an order with EBay, all 6 bottles at once. I remember the quantity sold were at zero for several of the colors before I purchased. I do not know if there were several batches, and some manufacturing variation in the raised irregular edge with different batches.

 

 

4) I may be more obsessive in not wanting ink (especially eternal/permanent ink) on my glass or cap threads because of the mess it can cause, so I have a regular ritual of wiping the cap liner and threads, and bottle threads with a tissue if there is any significant ink accumulation. If there is dried ink (i.e. vintage bottle or defective lid), I will even wet the tissue to clean it off the glass, or rinse the cap. Because of my ritual, I always open my bottles with clean threads. I started doing this because dried ink cakes and flakes off, making a mess, and leads to progressive buildup affecting the seal, and leading to evaporation losses long term. If necessary, I even cover the glass top with saran wrap to get a better seal for long term storage.

Edited November 17, 2011 by SamCapote

[WOBentley]

Sam,

I did have about 30-40cc in each bottle but as you say I did not hold the bottle with my whole hand. I tried to use it just the way I would if I were filling a pen (except I left the bottle inverted for longer than I normally would have, as I wanted a slightly harsh real world environment for my use). Your comments about knocking it down are very valid though. Although the way I use and store my inks (I only have just over 100 so much easier to maintain and watch than your much larger collection) knocking them over when I am not actually filling a pen is quite unlikely (except if we got an Earthquake!) so I did not test that way. I agree that over time on their sides, the bottles I had that had water on their rims would get water/ink on the threads too. As to your comment #4...I also admit to a modicum of Bottle cleaning OCD...Since I had a Parker Penman bottle seal shut on me and require a warm running water bath to open it (a long time ago) I have become an obsessive thread wiper after each fill...To that extent I have also found latex or nitrile gloves (usually nitrile nowadays) to be an indispensible tool for "presentable" hands in a formal work environment!

I don't know that our test results were necessarily all that different once your more rigorous testing preocedure is taken into account. Owners/users can now at least compare and decide which level of use/prevention they are comfortable with. Mine are totally usable for my needs (and yes I have done the saran wrap thing before too...with the aforementioned Parker Bottle!) If I have time I may experiment with a more robust gasket material. Since I have a full ring impression in my gaskets I do not think the problem in my bottles is due (mostly) to the slightly uneven bottle top, but more to the need for a slightly denser gasket material that will not permanently deform and will therefore more "tightly" grip the lid...maybe the rubber used in canning jars would be an appropriate material???

As always...thanks for your testing this all out for us...it spurred me to do my own test so now I know where I am with my bottles. I also was an early orderer...around the 6th or 7th for Blue (the most popular seemingly at the time) and in the first 4 or so for the others. So you are right there may well be batch differences, but I don't know if we would be able to tell batch by shipping order as they may not have them inventoried that way???

Dave

Edited November 18, 2011 by WOBentley

[SamCapote]

Well I have what I consider (for me at least) to be good news. Just like reporting my SITB with DeAtramentis inks, I did not post my research and ask Speedy/Philip for a refund as a trivial matter. I had all the 5 other bottles packed up and ready to return, with no problem from Speedy/Philip regarding refunding. I have always appreciated the above and beyond customer service they have shown, and it did continue when this leaking problem was reported by OP.

 

In any case, I thought I would see how easy it would be to make the one bottle I was keeping have a flat/flush top (and proper seal) by using simple automotive sandpaper in 600, 900, and 1200 grits. I placed a sheet on a flat table, added a small puddle of water, kept the inverted bottle flat on the paper/table, and very lightly sanded mostly in circular motions, checking frequently for progress. I started with 1200 grit until I saw quite a bit needed to be removed, so did most the sanding with 600 & 900 grit. It was obvious where the raised surfaces were, as they became frosted with no abrasion frosting on the low spots. My goal was to continue until there was light frosted abrasion finally reaching the low sides, and the total process only took about 15 mins.

 

After doing this, I did my water testing, but this time shook it vigorously for 5 minutes, turned it upside down for 5 mins, and shook back and forth vigorously for another 5 minutes. I now have a 100% seal. When I carefully unscrewed the nipple section, and pulled it straight up out of the bottle, I checked all sides for any water leakage onto glass threads, or even the metal section threads. All dry, except the very top edge surface where you see the frosted sanding, but not beyond that down the sides! Before I buff out the frosting a bit with my dremel, I took a closeup photo to show how I fixed it, and where the high/low spots were causing the leak.

 

I consider this an easy and reliable enough fix for me, that I am now going to cancel returning the bottles for refund. A thicker seal may also have been an option, but there is not that much thread gripping distance to add rubber/styrofoam that would not interact with the ink. I offer this as what I consider the quickest, most reliable solution. Long term, I believe TWSBI should have this addressed at the manufacturing level.

 

(thumbnail)

 

 

 

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/Inks/TWSBI/TWISBOT-FIXEDs.jpg

Edited November 19, 2011 by SamCapote

[Avetikus]

Nicely done.

 

Yes, it IS a workaround, but no, it's not a dealbreaker. I'm going to sand mine down today.

 

Thanks for the heads-up.

[WOBentley]

Sam,

What did you use in the Dremel to do final polish and did that affect watertightness?

One of my hobbies is auto restoration so I have access to lots of sandpaper and I use a thick sheet of float glass for a sharpening "table" so I could fiddle with my "leakers" but curious what you used for polishing compound on the final step. Suppose I could work up to higher grit and not need to polish too...like adding in 2000, 4000 and 8000. I have 4 bottles that would benefit...

Thanks for your work on this!

Dave

[SamCapote]

Sam,

What did you use in the Dremel to do final polish and did that affect watertightness?

One of my hobbies is auto restoration so I have access to lots of sandpaper and I use a thick sheet of float glass for a sharpening "table" so I could fiddle with my "leakers" but curious what you used for polishing compound on the final step. Suppose I could work up to higher grit and not need to polish too...like adding in 2000, 4000 and 8000. I have 4 bottles that would benefit...

Thanks for your work on this!

Dave

 

Dave, I used those small 1/2 inch wide & 1/4" high white compressed felt buffing cylinders that come with the Dremel tool kits and screw onto a a post/screw. I always use a touch of the Dremel brown polishing compound that comes in the 1" x 1/2" small rectangular block. It did not make the glass shiny clear as I thought it might, but it softened the frosting, and makes it less noticeable, and evenly smooth when replacing the lid.

 

I didn't have those higher grits, other than for nib smoothing sticks from Binder, and I didn't feel this application justified that extra amount of work. To be honest, I did most of the "work" on the 600 grit. You just need to use light pressure, dry the top and check the frosting, and have a flat table (or sheet of glass that you know is flat) underneath the wet sandpaper. This is not a visible surface once enclosed with top, so I went for functionality, not high gloss appearance. I'm sure I can do the other 5 bottles in an hour now that I know how it went.

[WOBentley]

Sam

Super, I am off for 4 of the next 6 weeks and lining up projects (but only fun ones...it is vacation after all ) so I will probably do this myself..

Thanks again!

Dave

[fabrimedeiros]

Great job, Sam!

[Grendel]

Got mine from Amazon, 1st batch. Same problem, a dip in the rim of the bottle. Did the water test and it leaked all over the place Just glad I hadn't inked it yet, KTC has a tendency to stick well to anything... I'll contact TWSBI for a replacement rather than trying to hack it.