Ph Level Of Inks (Results)

[BiggieD]

OK, so we have to have some sort of batch control. Also we're forgetting the need to test at different altitudes and at different humidity levels as well as at different levels of exposure to natural and light. Now that I think about it, time of day and season could have an impact, you never know until you test.

 

This is going to hve to be a very large trial...

[raging.dragon]

OK, so we have to have some sort of batch control. Also we're forgetting the need to test at different altitudes and at different humidity levels as well as at different levels of exposure to natural and light. Now that I think about it, time of day and season could have an impact, you never know until you test.

 

This is going to hve to be a very large trial...

 

Time to start ordering inks by the 50 gallon (200L) barrel.

[kitsunec4]

Time to start ordering inks by the 50 gallon (200L) barrel.

 

...do they...even make ink in super large batches like that? Especially with the specialty inks? @_@

 

If we're going to be really detailed and obsessive, should probably also record the temperature at which a given ink is pH-ed, since temperature can change the pH of a solution. Man, this is getting complicated in my head. Too bad that since the nature of ink means that they're highly saturated in color, we can't just do a colormetric based pH assay with a 96-well plate or something.

[raging.dragon]

Time to start ordering inks by the 50 gallon (200L) barrel.

 

...do they...even make ink in super large batches like that? Especially with the specialty inks? @_@

 

If we're going to be really detailed and obsessive, should probably also record the temperature at which a given ink is pH-ed, since temperature can change the pH of a solution. Man, this is getting complicated in my head. Too bad that since the nature of ink means that they're highly saturated in color, we can't just do a colormetric based pH assay with a 96-well plate or something.

 

We "need" something like this: http://www.lazarlab.com/microph.htm. A pH probe small enough to use with a microtiter plate.

[wallylynn]

...do they...even make ink in super large batches like that? Especially with the specialty inks? @_@

I don't know if they'd be sold at that scale, but I'm sure they're made in that scale. Then they're bottled and shipped around the world.

 

Noodlers sometimes sells large bottles, quarts, 1/2 gal, even 1 gal jugs of the more popular colors at the Boston Pen shows.

[somnath1077]

Hi Sivvi,

 

Thanks for posting your results. Any chance that you'll testing Waterman, Pelikan and Lamy inks in the future?

 

Best,

 

Somnath.

[kitsunec4]

Time to start ordering inks by the 50 gallon (200L) barrel.

 

...do they...even make ink in super large batches like that? Especially with the specialty inks? @_@

 

If we're going to be really detailed and obsessive, should probably also record the temperature at which a given ink is pH-ed, since temperature can change the pH of a solution. Man, this is getting complicated in my head. Too bad that since the nature of ink means that they're highly saturated in color, we can't just do a colormetric based pH assay with a 96-well plate or something.

 

We "need" something like this: http://www.lazarlab.com/microph.htm. A pH probe small enough to use with a microtiter plate.

 

That micro-pH meter is amaaaaazing.

[SamCapote]

Time to start ordering inks by the 50 gallon (200L) barrel.

 

...do they...even make ink in super large batches like that? Especially with the specialty inks? @_@

 

If we're going to be really detailed and obsessive, should probably also record the temperature at which a given ink is pH-ed, since temperature can change the pH of a solution. Man, this is getting complicated in my head. Too bad that since the nature of ink means that they're highly saturated in color, we can't just do a colormetric based pH assay with a 96-well plate or something.

 

We "need" something like this: http://www.lazarlab.com/microph.htm. A pH probe small enough to use with a microtiter plate.

 

Does the "We" mean you are going to purchase the micro probe, bench instrument, verify calibration, and ongoing calibration pH 4, 7, 10 reference solutions?

[tfwall]

Time to start ordering inks by the 50 gallon (200L) barrel.

 

...do they...even make ink in super large batches like that? Especially with the specialty inks? @_@

 

If we're going to be really detailed and obsessive, should probably also record the temperature at which a given ink is pH-ed, since temperature can change the pH of a solution. Man, this is getting complicated in my head. Too bad that since the nature of ink means that they're highly saturated in color, we can't just do a colormetric based pH assay with a 96-well plate or something.

 

We "need" something like this: http://www.lazarlab.com/microph.htm. A pH probe small enough to use with a microtiter plate.

 

I've thought about getting a similar product for using inside 5 mm OD glass tubes. If you end up purchasing this one, do let us know how you like it.

[raging.dragon]

Does the "We" mean you are going to purchase the micro probe, bench instrument, verify calibration, and ongoing calibration pH 4, 7, 10 reference solutions?

 

I'm tempted. But first I'll have to stop spending all my money on pens! And also move to a bigger place where I can setup a workshop (but that'll should be happening within the next several months).

 

I've thought about getting a similar product for using inside 5 mm OD glass tubes. If you end up purchasing this one, do let us know how you like it.

 

It's on my wishlist, but it'll be some time before I can save up the money for probe, meter, calibration solutions, etc.. I studied chemical engineering but ended up working as a computer programmer - it's been over a decade since I've seen the inside of a chem lab, so a part of me finds this oddly appealing....

[tfwall]

I've thought about getting a similar product for using inside 5 mm OD glass tubes. If you end up purchasing this one, do let us know how you like it.

 

It's on my wishlist, but it'll be some time before I can save up the money for probe, meter, calibration solutions, etc.. I studied chemical engineering but ended up working as a computer programmer - it's been over a decade since I've seen the inside of a chem lab, so a part of me finds this oddly appealing....

 

Well, this sort of thing is my professional bailiwick. If I can be of assistance to you, just shoot me a message.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Chemyst

[JefferyS]

I'm wondering if the first question to ask is "What is the effect of pH 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, etc. liquids on pens?". And not really using pens, but on ebonite, acrylic, steel, etc.  The higher pH inks seem to raise more eyebrows, but they rarely stray above pH 8.  Inks do stray way below pH 7. Rather that using a Parker to judge ink pH, has someone done tests with HCl or NaOH at known pH conditions and their effects on the parts that touch ink? I have everyone's favorite blue "simmering" in a Platinum Preppy, and it's still intact.

 

This could be a master's thesis if a chemyst :-) could convince a FP-using chem professor of its importance.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Jeffery Smith

[tfwall]

"What is the effect of pH 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, etc. liquids on pens?" ... has someone done tests with HCl or NaOH at known pH conditions?

 

Short answer is yes, but not really in a way that is useful to the layman. While some effects are macroscopic and universal, a lot of the specifics depend upon the formulation of the particular plastic or steel. It is difficult (and potentially misleading) to generalize to a broad range of pens. Especially when material specifics can change. Particularly when the pens are several decades old and have been stored and treated differently.

 

That said, pen manufacturers know their lines and understand that while inks are the profit drivers for them, pens are perceived to be the pricy component to consumers. Manufacturers therefor take pains to ensure that their inks are at least benign, if not beneficial, to the materials used in their pen lines.

[raging.dragon]

I'm wondering if the first question to ask is "What is the effect of pH 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, etc. liquids on pens?". And not reallyusing pens, but on ebonite, acrylic, steel, etc. The higher pH inks seem to raise more eyebrows, but they rarely stray above pH 8. Inks do stray way below pH 7. Rather that using a Parker to judge ink pH, has someone done tests with HCl or NaOH at known pH conditions?

 

In general acids corrode metals. Gold is immune to all but a few *extremely* dangerous chemicals that won't ever end up in ink. I believe it is somewhere between pH 3 or 4 where corrosion of stainless steel starts to accelerate. Aluminum is more susceptible to acid damage, and I'm not certain about brass. I've heard that, even mild to moderate bases can damage celluloid, though I'm not certain at what pH this becomes a problem.

 

No doubt materials scientists & engineers have done extensive testing of this, but I don't know where to find the data. I don't really worry much about ink pH. However, I have enough of a chemistry background that the discussion piques my curiosity.

 

Personally (and based on incomplete information!), for pens with steel nibs or brass components, I'd prefere a pH > 3 or 4. For a celluloid pen with integrated filler I'd like pH < 8. For a pen with alot aluminum components I'd be looking at pH neutral or basic inks.

Edited August 23, 2011 by raging.dragon

[JefferyS]

I'm wondering if the first question to ask is "What is the effect of pH 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, etc. liquids on pens?". And not reallyusing pens, but on ebonite, acrylic, steel, etc.  The higher pH inks seem to raise more eyebrows, but they rarely stray above pH 8.  Inks do stray way below pH 7. Rather that using a Parker to judge ink pH, has someone done tests with HCl or NaOH at known pH conditions?

 

Gold is immune to all but a few *extremely* dangerous chemicals that won't ever end up in ink. I believe it is somewhere between pH 3 or 4 where corrosion of stainless steel starts to accelerate. Aluminum is more susceptible to acid damage, and I'm not certain about brass. Even mild to moderate bases can damage celluloid, though I'm not certain at what pH this becomes a problem. No doubt materials scientists & engineers have done extensive testing of this, but I don't know where to find the data. I don't really worry much about ink pH. However, I have enough of a chemistry background that the discussion piques my curiosity.

 

Personally (and based on incomplete information!), for pens with steel nibs or brass components, I'd prefere a pH > 3 or 4. For a celluloid pen with integrated filler I'd like pH < 8. For a pen with alot aluminum components I'd be looking at pH neutral or basic inks.

 

 

 

 

I concur. If I can get an ink I like in pH 5-8, I'm comfortable.

[SamCapote]

I'm wondering if the first question to ask is "What is the effect of pH 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, etc. liquids on pens?". And not reallyusing pens, but on ebonite, acrylic, steel, etc. The higher pH inks seem to raise more eyebrows, but they rarely stray above pH 8. Inks do stray way below pH 7. Rather that using a Parker to judge ink pH, has someone done tests with HCl or NaOH at known pH conditions?

 

In general acids corrode metals. Gold is immune to all but a few *extremely* dangerous chemicals that won't ever end up in ink. I believe it is somewhere between pH 3 or 4 where corrosion of stainless steel starts to accelerate. Aluminum is more susceptible to acid damage, and I'm not certain about brass. I've heard that, even mild to moderate bases can damage celluloid, though I'm not certain at what pH this becomes a problem.

 

No doubt materials scientists & engineers have done extensive testing of this, but I don't know where to find the data. I don't really worry much about ink pH. However, I have enough of a chemistry background that the discussion piques my curiosity.

 

Personally (and based on incomplete information!), for pens with steel nibs or brass components, I'd prefere a pH > 3 or 4. For a celluloid pen with integrated filler I'd like pH < 8. For a pen with alot aluminum components I'd be looking at pH neutral or basic inks.

 

It would be great to have some more OBJECTIVE measurements being done on various inks, with testing methodology and instruments listed for all to see. It is much more useful than general opinions not backed up by factual sources or actual tests. If you do get around to setting up equipment down the road, keep these threads in mind. Regarding some of the extremes of pH and their effects on pens, this was discussed in several published (Pen World Mag) articles that Greg Clark wrote as a part of his Ink Sampler project, and by others since. Greg had ink pH ranges from 1.6 to 12.1, and you can see what I posted in this thread a year ago. Rather than listening to any members at FPN (including myself), I recommend that you do your own independent research on testing equipment you want to invest in, given this is not critical medical chemistry research we are talking about with inks.

[penguina]

I'm wondering if the first question to ask is "What is the effect of pH 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, etc. liquids on pens?". And not reallyusing pens, but on ebonite, acrylic, steel, etc. The higher pH inks seem to raise more eyebrows, but they rarely stray above pH 8. Inks do stray way below pH 7. Rather that using a Parker to judge ink pH, has someone done tests with HCl or NaOH at known pH conditions?

 

In general acids corrode metals. Gold is immune to all but a few *extremely* dangerous chemicals that won't ever end up in ink. I believe it is somewhere between pH 3 or 4 where corrosion of stainless steel starts to accelerate. Aluminum is more susceptible to acid damage, and I'm not certain about brass. I've heard that, even mild to moderate bases can damage celluloid, though I'm not certain at what pH this becomes a problem.

 

No doubt materials scientists & engineers have done extensive testing of this, but I don't know where to find the data. I don't really worry much about ink pH. However, I have enough of a chemistry background that the discussion piques my curiosity.

 

Personally (and based on incomplete information!), for pens with steel nibs or brass components, I'd prefere a pH > 3 or 4. For a celluloid pen with integrated filler I'd like pH < 8. For a pen with alot aluminum components I'd be looking at pH neutral or basic inks.

 

It would be great to have some more OBJECTIVE measurements being done on various inks, with testing methodology and instruments listed for all to see. It is much more useful than general opinions not backed up by factual sources or actual tests. If you do get around to setting up equipment down the road, keep these threads in mind. Regarding some of the extremes of pH and their effects on pens, this was discussed in several published (Pen World Mag) articles that Greg Clark wrote as a part of his Ink Sampler project, and by others since. Greg had ink pH ranges from 1.6 to 12.1, and you can see what I posted in this thread a year ago. Rather than listening to any members at FPN (including myself), I recommend that you do your own independent research on testing equipment you want to invest in, given this is not critical medical chemistry research we are talking about with inks.

 

Although I am only an artist, my partner has long been involved in "critical Medical research"

 

On that informal basis, I can't help thinking that before any defining/definate PH levels can be achieved here, there would be a need to analyis the contents of the inks. The ingredients of the inks should be checked to determine thier stabilty or volatilty.

 

That would be to check how the ink ingrediants would change over time, and the interactions of these ingredients with each other. This would be bound to effect the PH levels.

 

Perhaps a way forward here would be to use gas chromatography, and or mass spectrometry techniques?

 

Such as in this study to determine the ingredients of historical inks at http://www.morana-rtd.com/e-preservationscience/2006/Keheyan-22-02-06.pdf

 

But who would have a handy Mass. Spec. machine handy?

[SamCapote]

I'm wondering if the first question to ask is "What is the effect of pH 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, etc. liquids on pens?". And not reallyusing pens, but on ebonite, acrylic, steel, etc. The higher pH inks seem to raise more eyebrows, but they rarely stray above pH 8. Inks do stray way below pH 7. Rather that using a Parker to judge ink pH, has someone done tests with HCl or NaOH at known pH conditions?

 

In general acids corrode metals. Gold is immune to all but a few *extremely* dangerous chemicals that won't ever end up in ink. I believe it is somewhere between pH 3 or 4 where corrosion of stainless steel starts to accelerate. Aluminum is more susceptible to acid damage, and I'm not certain about brass. I've heard that, even mild to moderate bases can damage celluloid, though I'm not certain at what pH this becomes a problem.

 

No doubt materials scientists & engineers have done extensive testing of this, but I don't know where to find the data. I don't really worry much about ink pH. However, I have enough of a chemistry background that the discussion piques my curiosity.

 

Personally (and based on incomplete information!), for pens with steel nibs or brass components, I'd prefere a pH > 3 or 4. For a celluloid pen with integrated filler I'd like pH < 8. For a pen with alot aluminum components I'd be looking at pH neutral or basic inks.

 

It would be great to have some more OBJECTIVE measurements being done on various inks, with testing methodology and instruments listed for all to see. It is much more useful than general opinions not backed up by factual sources or actual tests. If you do get around to setting up equipment down the road, keep these threads in mind. Regarding some of the extremes of pH and their effects on pens, this was discussed in several published (Pen World Mag) articles that Greg Clark wrote as a part of his Ink Sampler project, and by others since. Greg had ink pH ranges from 1.6 to 12.1, and you can see what I posted in this thread a year ago. Rather than listening to any members at FPN (including myself), I recommend that you do your own independent research on testing equipment you want to invest in, given this is not critical medical chemistry research we are talking about with inks.

 

Although I am only an artist, my partner has long been involved in "critical Medical research"

 

On that informal basis, I can't help thinking that before any defining/definate PH levels can be achieved here, there would be a need to analyis the contents of the inks. The ingredients of the inks should be checked to determine thier stabilty or volatilty.

 

That would be to check how the ink ingrediants would change over time, and the interactions of these ingredients with each other. This would be bound to effect the PH levels.

 

Perhaps a way forward here would be to use gas chromatography, and or mass spectrometry techniques?

 

Such as in this study to determine the ingredients of historical inks at http://www.morana-rt...an-22-02-06.pdf

 

But who would have a handy Mass. Spec. machine handy?

 

That's a whole other level of evaluation which could be seen as violating patents and trade secrets. I'm not interested in going there. pH is not even a critical thing to know, it's a curiosity that may or may not have relevant impact on certain pen materials, but I was interested just from a general standpoint, maybe looking at mixing compatibility, and later when I started using Phenol as a biocide because it loses its equal dosed potency progressively above pH 8.0

 

I don't want to reverse engineer inks, or even take steps that look like that may be happening.

[Possum Hill]

Does the "We" mean you are going to purchase the micro probe, bench instrument, verify calibration, and ongoing calibration pH 4, 7, 10 reference solutions?

 

I'm tempted. But first I'll have to stop spending all my money on pens! And also move to a bigger place where I can setup a workshop (but that'll should be happening within the next several months).

 

I've thought about getting a similar product for using inside 5 mm OD glass tubes. If you end up purchasing this one, do let us know how you like it.

 

It's on my wishlist, but it'll be some time before I can save up the money for probe, meter, calibration solutions, etc.. I studied chemical engineering but ended up working as a computer programmer - it's been over a decade since I've seen the inside of a chem lab, so a part of me finds this oddly appealing....

I'm sure there are folks here with useful experience who would be happy to recommend equipment and methods. "Ink analysis" has gotten tied up in some rather thorny issues, so be a little wary if you get advice that can't stand the light of day.

[raging.dragon]

Perhaps a way forward here would be to use gas chromatography, and or mass spectrometry techniques?

 

Such as in this study to determine the ingredients of historical inks at http://www.morana-rt...an-22-02-06.pdf

 

But who would have a handy Mass. Spec. machine handy?

 

That's a whole other level of evaluation which could be seen as violating patents and trade secrets. I'm not interested in going there. pH is not even a critical thing to know, it's a curiosity that may or may not have relevant impact on certain pen materials, but I was interested just from a general standpoint, maybe looking at mixing compatibility, and later when I started using Phenol as a biocide because it loses its equal dosed potency progressively above pH 8.0

 

I don't want to reverse engineer inks, or even take steps that look like that may be happening.

 

Indeed, even though I suspect doing so would be legally OK* - I don't want to antagonize the ink manufacturers. Besides which a good GC/MC costs more than I'm willing to spend on this, a full on chemical analysis is more work than I'm willing to put into this, and I don't have access to the detailed information on all available dyes and additives which would be necessary to anaylize the results.

 

Actually it might be interesting to do a patent search. If an ink were patented the patent should include a fairly complete recipe.

 

* = An ink formula couldn't be copyrighted, patents would only apply if you copied the ink and so would only be a worry if you also made and sold ink (and if an ink is patented, the recipe is already published in patent), and unless you signed an NDA when buying the ink trade secret laws wouldn't apply to you either.