Noodler's White of the Whale

[zhangvict]

I'm planning to get some inks via mail as soon as the distributor restocks it's PR inks. I's though I'd take advantage of the waiting time to find out abount one of my order items but after loads of reseach, I still could not find the answers to the below questions.

 

I originally wanted to buy Noodler's White of the Whale to use to mix pastel-coloured inks but after some consideration, I kinda doubt whether I can justify buying such an expensive per ml ink when one can simply add water to mix light-coloured inks. If any of you have some White of the Whale, can you describe whats the difference between mixing ink with water and mixing with WotW?

 

White of the Whale DOES have some UV-properties, but then, so does Noodler's Blue Ghost. Apart from being three times more expensive, how is WotW different from BG in terms of invisible inks?

 

 

Also, I read somewhere on the ink mixing forum that adding some BG to non-bulletproof inks will greatly increase the permanence of the non-bulletproof ink. Is this true for WotW and other bulletproof Noodler's inks?

[Deirdre]

White of the Whale DOES have some UV-properties, but then, so does Noodler's Blue Ghost. Apart from being three times more expensive, how is WotW different from BG in terms of invisible inks?

WotW and BG are the same price.

 

Their underlying colors are different, and WotW is a tinting ink.

[SamCapote]

White of the Whale DOES have some UV-properties, but then, so does Noodler's Blue Ghost. Apart from being three times more expensive, how is WotW different from BG in terms of invisible inks?

WotW and BG are the same price.

 

Their underlying colors are different, and WotW is a tinting ink.

 

Deirdre, what do you mean about it being a tinting ink? Not sure what that means vs. BG. Thanks!

[Deirdre]

WotW has some white in it. You can use it to lighten another ink somewhat.

[Pictrix]

White of the Whale is a rather interesting animal. I haven't looked at any UV capabilities it might have. I don't even know if it's BP, but if they say so, then I suppose it is

WotW is more of a translucent ink than opaque... don't plan on having it show up on dark paper, as it has next to no "coverage" in that capacity.

 

As far as mixing goes, you will get different results using WotW than you would with water. Granted, the results are similar, since either way the color you're mixing it with is diluted, but they're not identical.

 

You will get some very soft "pastel" looking tones using WotW, that you won't quite get with water. I am having difficulty here finding the words to describe the difference and it's been awhile since I've played with WotW. The difference is subtle though.

 

While I do have some Blue Ghost as well, I've not used it to mix or dilute any other inks to date. (No working UV lamp at present, so the BG has been set aside for now.)

 

I don't know how patient you are, but if you give me a couple of days, perhaps I can generate a couple examples for you (and hopefully, the scans will show any differences).

[Deirdre]

There's a color chart around here somewhere that shows noodler's tints and shades.

 

Ahh, here it is:

 

http://www.geekatlaw.com/pens/NoodlersCMYKchart100.jpg

[zquilts]

WoW Deirdre! That is an amazing color chart. Fabulous! Thank you for sharing it !

[lapis]

If anybody showed me this chart, I'd say it has to be from Deirdre. Thanks!!

 

Mike

[tfwall]

WotW and BG are the same price.

 

How so?

 

My WotW came in a 1 oz jar for ~$15, while my Blue Ghost came in a 3 oz jar for about the same money.

[kernando]

If you try going too far mixing with water, it probably wouldn't flow very well.

[Pictrix]

Ok, I just couldn't stand it, so I got out some ink.

 

I'll say right up front, I got surprising results I was not at all expecting.

Perhaps this will answer some questions.

 

Using Noodler's Cactus Fruit (a very very deep magenta-ish color) as a base, I mixed the following with it (and sometimes more than one).

 

White of the Whale (WotW)

Blue Ghost

Water

 

Clairefontaine 90g paper used.

 

Conclusions:

 

1. Adding WotW will make the ink in your container look opaque. It also looks quite bright and gives you a fair approximation of what the ink will look like on paper.

 

2. WotW in any significant amount will cause this ink to feather and bleed, and even bleedthrough. Feathering is minimal on Bagasse compared to Clairefontaine, but still will nearly bleed through on Bagasse.

 

3. The color difference between diluting with water or WotW is subtle.

 

4. The color diluted with water, shows more shading than with WotW. It also appears "clearer" and even a bit brighter.

 

5. WotW will cause the ink to flow and "spread" more. Water may actually cause an ink to "bead" a little more.

 

6. Water seems to dilute the base color slightly more compared to an equal amount of WotW used.

 

7. Adding water to a mix that has WotW in it can help reduce the feather/bleed factor somewhat, depending on how much WotW was used.

 

8. Blue Ghost very subtly alters the "tint" of the diluted color, compared to water. However, the difference is barely worth noting.

 

9. Blue Ghost performs as well as water in terms of feather and bleed issues. It actually may perform marginally better for fine lines, keeping the edges a wee bit sharper.

 

10.Blue Ghost doesn't make this ink fluoresce, except where it is diluted so much as to be useless.

 

http://www.riorondo.com/fpn/misc/WOTWtest.jpg

 

 

The sample denoted as 2:3:8 appears to be a little darker than the sample above it, even though it was diluted more. The dip nib I used was a little too "extra wet" on that line, although the addition of more water did improve the "feather" issue, even when applied more heavily.

 

A drop of water inadvertently fell on the "Blue" of the first Blue Ghost sample... I blotted it off, as the ink ran instantly. I can't say how visible any of this would be after a proper soak. That little spot is the only spot in the mix that fluoresces.

 

Writing Qualities Overall: I didn't pay much attention to that as I went, other than noting the flow and spread when WotW was involved.

 

Cactus Fruit is quite a saturated color, and I didn't see remarkable results with dilution till at least 2:1 (2 water to 1 ink) and it takes 4+ or more parts water to really notably change this ink's color.

 

The unexpected parts? I didn't expect water to perform as well as it did for dilution. I didn't expect WotW to bleed and feather. If anything, I expected the reverse of the results obtained.

 

I was surprised and pleased that Blue Ghost performed well for general dilution. I would imagine if a person wanted a diluted "inky ink" instead of a watered one, then BG would be a good choice (at least for mixing with some of the Noodlers, that may not be true for specialty inks or other brands).

 

I was also surprised at exactly how much dilution a saturated color requires to alter it into something notably lighter. More to the point, how well water held up as a mixer even in what I'd consider to be quite large proportions.

 

As for BG, I did find a blacklight, and thought to try it out straight on the paper. There was the teeniest bit of color left on the nib, so the resulting writing is visible (barely) on the paper. That writing does fluoresce though, with a tint. In other words, while there might be a color or two out there that BG could mix with and cause a wild fluorescence when blacklit, for the most part, the ink just hides the BG, unless it's so diluted as to be pointless for use as a regular ink, or as a "hidden" one.

 

WotW in the bottle, under blacklight looks the same color as the paper.

 

Any other conclusions you wish to draw, are yours to draw!

[Deirdre]

I didn't make the color chart. I'm not that curious.

 

I simply remembered it and found it on the forum.

[SamCapote]

Ok, I just couldn't stand it, so I got out some ink.

 

I'll say right up front, I got surprising results I was not at all expecting.

Perhaps this will answer some questions.

 

As for BG, I did find a blacklight, and thought to try it out straight on the paper. There was the teeniest bit of color left on the nib, so the resulting writing is visible (barely) on the paper. That writing does fluoresce though, with a tint. In other words, while there might be a color or two out there that BG could mix with and cause a wild fluorescence when blacklit, for the most part, the ink just hides the BG, unless it's so diluted as to be pointless for use as a regular ink, or as a "hidden" one.

 

WotW in the bottle, under blacklight looks the same color as the paper.

 

That was some remarkable work, and with Deirdre's scan more than answers questions I have long had about WOTW & BG. I have both, but never understood how to use them. What is most puzzling is your observation that the ink hides the Black Light glowing with BG (did it also hide it with WOTW?). I thought the point of these two products was to make a hidden security glowing under UV light if mixed into another ink. Now I'm confused as to their purpose vis-a-vis UV lighting.

 

In any case, thanks very much for the detailed tests. Subscribed.

[Pictrix]

 

 

That was some remarkable work, and with Deirdre's scan more than answers questions I have long had about WOTW & BG. I have both, but never understood how to use them. What is most puzzling is your observation that the ink hides the Black Light glowing with BG (did it also hide it with WOTW?). I thought the point of these two products was to make a hidden security glowing under UV light if mixed into another ink. Now I'm confused as to their purpose vis-a-vis UV lighting.

 

In any case, thanks very much for the detailed tests. Subscribed.

 

Thanks! I'll admit that I too was wondering about the potential uses for both of these inks, aside from just having them in the collection as "unique".

 

I did not give the WotW much of any test with the blacklight, as my nib needed a good cleaning along with getting a little weary of the tests! But perhaps I'll find a little time tomorrow and report back on the UV capabilities of WotW.

 

As far as Blue Ghost goes, it was interesting that the washed out area of the waterspot DID fluoresce... apparently just where the BG flowed around a bit. In this capacity, it may be useful to detect "check washing". Outside of that, an "invisible mark" of some type on a document might have some use to prove some type of veracity, washed or not.

 

There might be some colors that would allow the UV to show through, but I'm thinking that most inks probably would just mask it.

 

When I purchased WotW, aside from being a novelty, I thought it might lighten up the color of an ink without watering it down. After today, I'm not so sure what its best use is. I already knew that using water would dilute an ink's water-resistance or permanance characteristics, but I thought it also would negatively affect flow, feather, bleed and so forth. That doesn't seem to be the case (at least not regarding what I prefer in an ink).

 

Do you know if there posts somewhere around here indicating what the intended qualities of WotW are?

[zhangvict]

oops!

Edited December 7, 2009 by zhangvict

[zhangvict]

Thank you Pictrix! your scan was very helpful to me and it will be a great addition to FPN

[Pictrix]

Reporting back on UV characteristics of WotW:

 

This color is faintly visible as you write, and does fluoresce mildly on bagasse and clairefontaine. The color in normal light is sadly, rather like snot, and it does dry with a sheen.

 

You can write over another color and it will fluoresce a bit. Of course this writing is shiny so you can see where it is in normal light as well. It does not have much for coverage capabilities. WotW does not provide any coverage on black construction paper, leaving only a shiny mark. That mark does fluoresce a nice blue though.

 

All of the papers I have here are almost as bright as the ink, the ink glows just a bit brighter. On newsprint, the glow is very much more striking. (Although you can faintly see where you wrote in normal light.)

 

Blue Ghost is brighter on standard papers, and about equivalent on newsprint. Blue Ghost truly is invisible, but for possibly leaving some trace of where the ink once wet the paper, or the nib left an indent.

 

When added to an ink, both colors will cause the ink to glow while it is wet. It will also glow where it is dry in the container.

 

However, once these samples were applied to paper, the results were more dubious and hard to see.

 

I had two ink colors, a blue-green noodler's mix, and Herbin's Rouge Opera. The blue-green color effectively masked most of the glow, although it did appear to glow some (with WotW) on the newsprint. If you didn't know to look for it, you probably wouldn't realize it was fluorescing.

 

Rouge opera, when diluted sufficiently (3 or 4:1) did glow quite nicely on the newsprint, but was not detectable on Bagasse or Clairefontaine. In fact, the glow ended up a lavender color on the newsprint, where the diluted Rouge Opera looked dusty rose in normal light. The difference there was obvious.

 

Both BG and WotW did allow the Rouge Opera to pass the water-resistance test: in both cases, a goodly amount of the ink stayed on the paper (bagasse) than the ink sample without (which mostly washed away in a brief rinse).

 

Papers tend to fluoresce more where they are wet. When they dry they look the same as they did before, but for some warping where they were once wet. The Bagasse paper looked more mottled under UV where it had been wet.

 

I did try both inks and an ink mix that has a small amount of WotW in it on black construction paper. In this case, all three samples *did* fluoresce. You could not really detect the fluorescence on the ink mix on standard light-colored paper though.

 

Conclusions:

Mostly I'm just confused and amused.

 

If you want to make secret marks on paper with "invisible ink" then Blue Ghost is the way to go. WotW is not invisible.

 

To see fluorescence on standard paper, you need to dilute the colored ink quite a bit, 4:1 or more. The effects are notably more obvious on unbrightened papers like newsprint (and construction paper).

 

The fact that you could detect fluorescence on black paper is interesting. The mixed-color inks must actually fluoresce on lighter papers also, but it's not readily detected with the naked eye unless the ink color is notably diluted.

 

In the bottle WotW glows an off white/blue, while BG glows a bit of phosphorescent green. Paper has a bit of blue glow to it so that may be why the effects of green/blue ink doesn't seem to be as visible compared to the red.

 

Regarding security, either color will make a non-water-resistant ink more water-resistant. Placing a mark with either ink (particularly BG) somewhere on a document will cause that area to obviously fluoresce, and may provide some proof of a document's veracity by that method.

 

If you want your ink to glow an obvious different color under blacklight, you'll need to dilute it quite a bit for the effects to show. The effects are more striking on papers that don't contain brighteners... aside from newsprint, I'm not sure what else is readily available.

 

I did try diluted inks on a security-patterned check (yellow), they behave the same as on regular paper. However, a dab of BG applied with a swab on the checkwriting paper, REALLY stands out when you hit it with a blacklight. That spot is undetectable to the naked eye under normal light.

 

Well, I've had enough fun for the last couple of days... so it's back to work for me.

[SamCapote]

...Mostly I'm just confused and amused.

 

If you want to make secret marks on paper with "invisible ink" then Blue Ghost is the way to go. WotW is not invisible....

 

Again, big thanks for all the detailed work. I agree with your conclusion about being confused and amused...mainly about the WOTW's design purpose. Unless we hear something from Nathan, it now appears WOTW is almost a gimmick ink. I can see using BG as a security marker by itself.

 

Here is a bit more detailed writeup from Pendemonium:

 

 

Noodler's Invisible Ink

 

Blue Ghost

- The first invisible ink safe for fountain pens. Writes clear, becomes visible when held under a black light!

 

Noodler's Whiteness of the Whale Ink

 

Whiteness of the Whale

is a pH neutral ink, exhibiting bulletproof durability upon cellulose paper, reflecting all of the color spectrum. It is a moderate white upon films and photographic papers when using a wet/generous flow feed/nib setting, but was particularly designed as a mixable white security ink - add to blues for a robin's egg effect, reds for a cherry effect, etc....and in addition, with enough added to a pH neutral ink it will give your personal mix preference a reflection that is distinct under any forensic lab lights/fluorescent black lighting sources - and when mixed at a consistent ratio, can help you form a personalized signature ink that is identifiable as your own as a distinct ink from all others. In addition, it will fluoresce (in response to fluorescent black lighting) bright white/electric blue on plain white papers, legal pads, etc...a more intense "liquid lightning" than previously available.

 

Named after the mysterious descriptions by Herman Melville of the white whale...this ink inhabits both the visible and invisible spectrums of what our eyes can see. It is the only Noodler's ink with a transparent label - in order to color the artwork the same color as the ink as seen through the clear glass bottle.

 

This ink is the brighter/more intense version of "blue ghost" - though inhabiting both the visible (reflective white light) and the invisible (bright white/electric blue when seen under fluorescent black light) light spectrums. A highly unusual specialty ink limited in production to 288 bottles worldwide (we do not have the resources to produce more than 288 one ounce bottles of this ink).

Edited December 8, 2009 by SamCapote

[Pictrix]

Interesting on the write-up from Pendemonium.

 

In my samples under UV, BG was definitely the brighter of the two, and my bottle of WotW was not invisible.

 

WotW does do some interesting things to the ink itself (like making it opaque in the container!) but the bleed and feather thing actually shocked and distressed me.

I didn't know it was BP until I encountered your comments, and today's tests did prove that much.

 

Ah well, I guess I'll just hang onto it as a curiosity. Meanwhile, BG probably will see the light of day a bit more often as a mixer, especially in inks that aren't so water-resistant. Truly, I like the idea of hidden margin notes in straight BG rather than mixing it with an ink merely to add some UV qualities (which I found hard to see on nice paper like clair). Adding BP aspects is useful though.

Easy enough to add some BP black to colors that are dark or you wish to darken to get the BP aspects, but BG affords a quite useful option for lighter colors.

 

I suppose that maybe there's some sort of labs and equipment out there that could actually detect the UV aspects in mixed ink on standard white papers (or via chemical analysis), but... based on my local experience with law enforcement (which, as it turns out, doesn't even bother to take prints for a typical theft incident) I somehow think the "security features" would never be worth the effort.

 

But to each their own

 

Cheers!

[zhangvict]

More thanks, your answers were more than enough for me to make a decision. I'm going to get BG instead of WotW. It seems much more usefull for both mixing and as an invisible ink.

 

 

I agree with your conclusion about being confused and amused...mainly about the WOTW's design purpose. Unless we hear something from Nathan, it now appears WOTW is almost a gimmick ink

 

I agree, WotW seems to be quite an useless ink. Thanks again! you saved me from suffering a disappointment in the future when I receive my order.

 

 

 

Oh wait! I just thought of something

 

Pictrix, did you shake the WotW ink bottle before you applied it onto dark paper? maybe the 'white' part of the WotW sank to the bottom, leaving behind the transparent, shiny part of the ink? This happened o my bottle of bulletproof black. It was grey before I shook it to evenly spread the color around.