M800 Decay

[roboPen]

I've been using a new M800 for daily writing for the last year or so. Recently I've noticed that the "gold" band at the end of the section (right behind the nib) is starting to pit and flake. Is this normal?

 

I've been using Montblanc Blue Black ink in the pen almost exclusively. Although iron gall inks are corrosive, I'm surprised that Pelikan would offer a pen that is incompatible with this popular ink.

[PAKMAN]

I've rarely seen a thread on the M-800 Section ring having problems but quite often seen Mont Blanc 144s with the section ring totally trashed by MB iron gall ink. I did however find this earlier thread, hope it helps.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=99179

[gyasko]

Yes, it's normal. That trim ring is an often repated design flaw in modern pens.

[Underskoterskan]

I agree with "gyasko" but I also think that this, much like "pakmanpony" stated, has to do with the ink used. I've used a pair of M800 for several years now and the trim ring on both of them are perfectly well preserved. The ink's I've used is Pelikan 4001 Königsblau and Waterman Florida Blue (these inks are perfectly stable and low-maintenance). However, there's no doubt that the trim ring could (and should) be made in a more durable manner at the Pelikan manufacturing plant in Hannover.

 

Regards

Undersköterskan

[roboPen]

Mine isn't quite as bad as the one in the thread, but it has only seen a year of use. See the flickr photo below, and click all sizes to see the huge image.

 

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3619/3441892635_9d16dc12ba_t.jpg

[Stylo]

I've been using Montblanc Blue Black ink in the pen almost exclusively. Although iron gall inks are corrosive, I'm surprised that Pelikan would offer a pen that is incompatible with this popular ink.

 

Popular or notorious?

 

[J English Smith]

I think MBs do this too with use of an iron-gall ink. That's one reason I personally avoid them...

 

When I started out, 30 years ago, I did like MB blue-black a lot. Today I use Private Reserve Midnight Blues. Same look, less fuss.

 

On the design side, I also agree that a trim ring in that particular spot is asking for trouble. In that way, the design of the basic m200 is hard to beat.

[Neill78]

I've been using Montblanc Blue Black ink in the pen almost exclusively. Although iron gall inks are corrosive, I'm surprised that Pelikan would offer a pen that is incompatible with this popular ink.

 

When I got my M200 back from a trip to Chartpak for a faulty nib exchange, the package contained a note that said "using waterproof inks will void the warranty." A thread or two here took this to mean Noodler's Bulletproof, but I'm sure they mean iron gall inks.

 

That said I've got a couple of other pens here that have never seen iron gall ink but nevertheless have their decorative rings eaten away, too. It doesn't take much acid to eat through cheaply plated steel, I guess.

 

Neill

[gyasko]

The plating is going to wear no matter what ink you use. This is a question of bad design, not inks, because water is a factor in galvanic corrosion. Let me know when they come up with dry ink!

[jbn10161]

When I got my M200 back from a trip to Chartpak for a faulty nib exchange, the package contained a note that said "using waterproof inks will void the warranty." A thread or two here took this to mean Noodler's Bulletproof, but I'm sure they mean iron gall inks.

They mean anything other than traditional water soluble inks such as Pelikan, MB other than BlBk, Herbin, Waterman, Diamine other than registry, etc.

 

This ring around the base of the section has become a near universal design over the last fifteen years or so. It's unfortunate. Pens did not use to have them--back when iron gall inks were more common. I don't agree that the rings will corrode with any ink. The only ring I have that has corroded is on a Waterman that I used for years with MB blue-black before I learned what precautions to take.

 

[gyasko]

I don't agree that the rings will corrode with any ink. The only ring I have that has corroded is on a Waterman that I used for years with MB blue-black before I learned what precautions to take.

 

 

It's a question of chemistry. Look at gold and brass on the anodic chart. There's a half volt difference between gold and brass, so in a wet environment, galvanic corroision is going to be an issue. Ph levels affect the process, but the process is there.

Edited April 15, 2009 by gyasko

[jbn10161]

I don't agree that the rings will corrode with any ink. The only ring I have that has corroded is on a Waterman that I used for years with MB blue-black before I learned what precautions to take.

It's a question of chemistry. Look at gold and brass on the anodic chart. There's a half volt difference between gold and brass, so in a wet environment, galvanic corroision is going to be an issue. Ph levels affect the process, but the process is there.

I don't want to spend the time figuring out the chemistry, but perhaps that half volt difference plus the Ph levels that you agree affect the process are all that is needed to make a material difference. It would be nice to have an instrument that is impervious, but it's okay for me if whatever corrosion occurs is so microscopic and slow that it would take two or three generations to notice. Those lower rings have already been on the market for almost a generation now, and if they corroded noticeably from water soluble, noncorrosive ink, we would know. (Note that they are not in "a wet environment." The corrosion from FG inks occurs even after the ink has dried on the rings; after water dries on the rings, there's no potentially corrosive agent.)

Edited April 15, 2009 by jbn10161

[J English Smith]

The Parker Sonnets have this ring design on the section too, and I have not noticed corrosion or plating loss on mine. I use exclusively water-soluble inks, however.

[roboPen]

The plating is going to wear no matter what ink you use. This is a question of bad design, not inks, because water is a factor in galvanic corrosion. Let me know when they come up with dry ink!

 

Every time I've tried to fill one of my pens with toner, the experiment has ended badly

[gyasko]

Galvanic corrosion is a big issue in marine engineering because boats sit in water. Water is more or less neutral, so acid is obviously not the whole story.

 

Pens don't sit in water, but the trim ring area on the section is going to get wet, either when the pen is filled, or when the pen is bumped and ink spills in the cap. There is very often condensation inside the cap as well. (The ink in the cap issue is one reason i think i've had more of a problem with trim ring corrosion than others. I keep my pens in my laptop bag, but that gets knocked around on my commutes.) Wiping off the ink would seem to be a good idea, but over time, that will wear down the very thin gold plating. Putting a some sort of a protective layer might help until one part of the film wears away, at which point it will make things worse.

 

The only way to avoid trim ring corrosion is not to use the pen.

 

 

[PJohnP]

Galvanic corrosion is a big issue in marine engineering because boats sit in water. Water is more or less neutral, so acid is obviously not the whole story.

 

Pens don't sit in water, but the trim ring area on the section is going to get wet, either when the pen is filled, or when the pen is bumped and ink spills in the cap. There is very often condensation inside the cap as well. (The ink in the cap issue is one reason i think i've had more of a problem with trim ring corrosion than others. I keep my pens in my laptop bag, but that gets knocked around on my commutes.) Wiping off the ink would seem to be a good idea, but over time, that will wear down the very thin gold plating. Putting a some sort of a protective layer might help until one part of the film wears away, at which point it will make things worse.

 

The only way to avoid trim ring corrosion is not to use the pen.

 

I'm afraid that this is a much more complex issue than simply pH or galvanic potential, although I'm not dismissing those points. Just an aside on this, though, marine engineering also has to contend with the effects of salt in seaside locations, and chloride attack on certain types of steel, which is, as I noted, a more complex discussion... I'm an engineer with long experience in industry, and I sometimes find the discussions a trifle obtuse!

 

I posted a discussion of this a few days back in Polymer and Metal Chemical Resistance, but I'll just note that there are many other materials that can affect the construction materials in pens. There are whole areas of science and materials engineering dedicated to these problems.

 

In this case, I rather suspect that the coating thickness is both thin and irregular, so that we're seeing an initial pinpoint sized penetration of the protective gold layer, allowing the metal underneath to begin to corrode. As this occurs, the corrosion propagates under the coating from the initial perforation, possibly "lifting" the gold layer because of differential expansion of the corrosion materials, and thus leading to more exposed metal under the coating. Corrosion under passivating or protective layers is a well known phenomenon, and is usually addressed by making the layers thicker and more resistant to perforation or wear. Note that this gold layer on the ring is not a sacrificial layer like a galvanic coating, but a (relatively) non-corroding protective layer. Getting gold to participate in a galvanic cell is a bit more difficult than something like zinc or copper, despite the galvanic potentials noted (those people who are really detail oriented on such topics are pointed towards the exceptionally fine texts on electrochemistry from Bockris and Ready).

 

Bottom line here is that the gold coating layer on the ring is likely too thin for this service. I'd imagine that Pelikan/Chartpak would be receptive to repair/replacement (assuming non-abusive service on a given pen when submitted to them).

 

 

 

John P.

[Nabster]

Wouldn't a 14k trim ring work just as well... no brass underneath the gold and no plating to wear. It might be a bit more expensive to produce, but since it's "pure" gold it shouldn't corrode.

[Stylo]

John's post seems to explain the flaking off of the plating.

 

Sometimes, the plating is so thin and irregular that we also have to be very gentle when wiping off the trim.

 

[Blade Runner]

I've had a few Watermans and a Parker 75 (French made) from the 80s with gold trim on the section that corroded with Waterman and Parker inks. Never used MB BB in them. In those cases I think the problem was that the plating was too thin. Pelikan's trim looks thicker, so I don't think you'll get corrosion as quickly.

Edited April 15, 2009 by jeen

[Stylo]

I wonder if a simple coating of protective wax (car or museum wax) would go a long way in protecting the trim from corrosion.