Ballpoint Refill Differences?

[rarredondo]

About a month ago, I purchased a (vintage?) Noblesse ballpoint. The blue refill it came with didn't last long so I ordered a Montblanc black refill to replace it with. When it came, though, there were a couple very subtle differences between the old refill and the new that (seem to) make it not work perfectly. Here are a couple comparison pictures that'll explain things a bit better:

 

plastic top/'cap' depth:

http://foberts.com/images/depth.jpg

 

Forgive my crude method of comparing the two but you can see that the depth of the plastic top cap is different between the two; the new refill is definitely deeper. Further, there doesn't seem to be a full-refill-height-difference but the height at which the refill goes from the ink reservoir to the start of the writing/ball part seems slightly different as well:

http://foberts.com/images/height.jpg

 

The difference here is so minute I'm assuming it'd be negligible, but it caught my eye as well.

 

I'm assuming the main issue is the depth of that top plastic cap but can't seem to find any information anywhere regarding that; has anyone experienced this before? Any and all help or information would be greatly appreciated.

 

Also, I apologize for butchering any terms above - I'm fairly new to this. And just to be clear, this is the pen I purchased:

http://foberts.com/images/noblesse.jpg

 

And here's the resulting issue - blue refill on top, obviously:

http://foberts.com/images/diff.jpg

 

Regards,
Rob

Edited November 17, 2016 by rarredondo

[meiers]

Interesting observation.

I wonder why modern refills differ in this way. And you are not the first person to notice this issue

Are you able to use and enjoy your ballpoint pen?

I have heard of an adaptor that could address this issue.

[meiers]

There was talk here on FPN about it.

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/180069-montblanc-ballpoint-refill-adaptor-required/?fromsearch=1

Edited November 17, 2016 by meiers

[rarredondo]

Interesting observation.

I wonder why modern refills differ in this way. And you are not the first person to notice this issue

Are you able to use and enjoy your ballpoint pen?

I have heard of an adaptor that could address this issue.

 

Oh, really? I did my share of searching but couldn't find this exact issue elsewhere. Either way, I suppose it's almost a relief to know that I'm not the only one that's noticed this issue.

 

While the pen functions, looking at the tip itself being sunken in a bit actually bothers me enough that I'm using my Montblanc PIX ballpoint both in and out of the office (whereas I'd be splitting duty between the two).

 

edit:

Regarding the link you sent, it looks like those two refills are nearly an inch different in actual height; the two that I have (old and new) are nearly identical in that regard. With the depth of the plastic cap I mentioned above being slightly off, it's almost as if I'd need to put something inside that area rather than put something rather lengthy on top of it.

 

Thanks for the reply!

Edited November 17, 2016 by rarredondo

[rarredondo]

I just got this as a reply from an authorized store I sent an email to, I guess the dimensions themselves were changed. Hope this helps anyone that may run into this issue!

 

Hi Robert,

I actually ran into this issue about a month ago with a customer that came into the store. Unfortunately, Montblanc did change the dimensions of the back section of their ballpoint refills so that the newer refills will not extend far enough out of the front section.

The only course of action I was able to come up with was to take a small piece of paper and wad it into the rear section. While not an elegant solution, it did allow the refill to extend the correct amount and made the pen usable.


Regards,
Joe

[meiers]

Aha! Thanks for sharing.

Now why would they make their new refills a little shorter?

[rarredondo]

Aha! Thanks for sharing.

Now why would they make their new refills a little shorter?

 

Absolutely. And I have NO idea! It makes no sense to me

[penparadise]

http://whitemountainpens.de/Refills/Kugelschreiber/Vintage%20Refill/Vintage%20Ballpen%20Refill%20(4).jpg

 

And BTW, Rob, you don't have a Noblesse ballpoint but a Montblanc Slimline ballpoint.

Noblesse and Slimline pens often gets mixed up. The main difference is the Montblanc star within the end of the clip. A Noblesse doesn't have that star, a Slimline has.

[rarredondo]

 

And BTW, Rob, you don't have a Noblesse ballpoint but a Montblanc Slimline ballpoint.

Noblesse and Slimline pens often gets mixed up. The main difference is the Montblanc star within the end of the clip. A Noblesse doesn't have that star, a Slimline has.

 

Ah, thank you for this. You learn something new everyday

[penparadise]

Aha! Thanks for sharing.

Now why would they make their new refills a little shorter?

 

There ist no difference of a few millimeters, it's just that the thicker tip doesn't go through the front hole of the pen. If you open the hole a bit the refill will come out as with the older refill.

[rarredondo]

 

There ist no difference of a few millimeters, it's just that the thicker tip doesn't go through the front hole of the pen. If you open the hole a bit the refill will come out as with the older refill.

 

Actually, that isn't the case - and I'm comparing the two with the Slimline as we speak. They both go through the front of the pen with the same ease. As per my picture, the mm difference in depth of the back/plastic part is about the same as the shorter/missing "length" or distance that the new refill is not completely extending (again, pictured above).

Edited November 17, 2016 by rarredondo

[meiers]

Thank you for the comparison and the photo.

 

Axel, do you know why Montblanc changed the design of their refills?

Edited November 17, 2016 by meiers

[rarredondo]

btw, fixed it. put a very small piece of rubber eraser in the top and a dab of super-glue to hold that in place. that made the depth exactly where it needs to be, and it comes out of the end (and stays in place) exactly like the original refill.

 

thanks again, everyone!

[meiers]

btw, fixed it. put a very small piece of rubber eraser in the top and a dab of super-glue to hold that in place. that made the depth exactly where it needs to be, and it comes out of the end (and stays in place) exactly like the original refill.

 

thanks again, everyone!

Brilliant.

[penparadise]

Axel, do you know why Montblanc changed the design of their refills?

 

1. The first ballpoints of Montblanc in the 50's used the Ballograph refills from Sweden. You can still get these refills from Sweden or cut the plastic ends of a bigger standard refill to use in your oldest Montblanc ballpoints.

2. Then Montblanc used their own refills from the 60's up to the late 70's which they called Riesenmine. This refill came from Schmidt Feintechnik and had quite a slim tip.

3. I think in the mid 80's Schmidt improved the tip of the refill which had to be a bit thicker then and Montblanc offered for about 10 years new barrels for all ballpoints from the 60's and 70's as a free exchange.

4. Because of the new twist action mechanic of the ballpoints Montblanc had to cut down the length of the refills because otherwise the pen would have become too long. For many years (up to 2010 or so) Montblanc delivered the shorter refills with an adaptor to get the same length as the refills of no.3. Now they stopped delivering the adaptors and a user of an older Montblanc ballpoint has to be very careful not to threw away that adaptor but switch it to the new refill.

 

These are the 4 steps of development in the large refills for Montblanc Ballpoints not mentioning the small refills for the Mozart and old 4-color-ballpoints.

Edited November 19, 2016 by penparadise

[meiers]

Thank you Axel for helping us make sense of this.

[vdiantonio]

Wow! I thought I was the only one that noticed small subtle differences like this in ball point refills. I've been wadding little bits of paper or eraser to the back of several of my modern ball point refills to get the refill to stick out just a little more for several years now. I feel somehow vindicated now!!

[ega]

Axel:

 

Thank you for your authoritative post about the development of the MB ball pen refill - quite a saga!

I have been struggling to find a refill for my 60 plus years old MB No 38 having been informed by a UK MB dealer that the current refills are shorter than those originally supplied for my ball pen. I see today that an adapter is available on eBay to extend current refills but this leaves the point made in your post that the tip size has been increased.

I have modified a LAMY brand refill to fit my pen including turning down the tip to suit. I did think about enlarging the hole in the barrel but was reluctant to alter the original; however, since as you say MB used to offer a replacement barrel to suit the larger tip I suppose enlarging the hole in the tip of the existing barrel might be justifiable.

With this in mind, do you know whether the metal tip of the barrel is removeable? Ideally, I would like to make a new tip for the barrel with larger hole to suit the current refill but still be able to return the pen to its original state.

[penparadise]

... do you know whether the metal tip of the barrel is removeable? Ideally, I would like to make a new tip for the barrel with larger hole to suit the current refill but still be able to return the pen to its original state.

 

Well, the tip is glued into the plastic barrel, so it should be removable. But I never tried how strong the glue is ...

[ega]

 

Well, the tip is glued into the plastic barrel, so it should be removable. But I never tried how strong the glue is ...

 

Thank you; I had thought the tip might be screwed in and therefore removable but, on reflection, if this were so no doubt MB would have offered just a replacement tip rather than a complete barrel when they moved to the refill with the larger tip.

 

I may yet try to to enlarge the hole in the existing tip and note that this hole is tapered so that simply turning back the end of the tip would automatically result in a larger mouth; the difference in size is relatively great, however, and this might not end well.