Sailor Fountain Pen Nibs, 14K or 21K, which is Softer?

[pensaremadeforwriting]

Hi there,

 

for the owners of the Sailor 14K and 21K nibs,

 

could you provide me a detailed comparism of the difference between the two nibs?

 

I read that the 14K nib is softer and more responsive compared to the 21K nib.

 

However, from my real life experience, I do remember that 24K gold are very malleable, and the less pure gold, i.e. 14K gold would be harder, due to the additives which strengthen the molecular structure of a pure metal body.

 

There seems to be a difference from this 2 sources of info, so, can anyone who owns the 2 nib types kindly provide me a detailed review of your knowledge from your writing experience of the above stated nibs?

 

thanks in advance.

 

 

 

Regards

[Zeroblade]

As far as I know, 21k is softer than 14k, since the high the gold content, the softer the nib should be. Can't provide any exact details though

[MDI]

It has more to do with nib construction. I have a Sailor 1911 w/ a hard fine (marked H-F) 21k nib. They are not joking. It's a hard one.

[pensaremadeforwriting]

how is the response of it when compared to the stainless steel nib?

 

 

from my experience,

 

the Stainless Steel Nib though 'usable smooth' feels very 'Hard on the Ground' like a sports car.

 

the Gold Nib 14K (not tried a 21K yet, and not in short or medium term) feels very 'buttery smooth',

 

I have an opinion that it's to do with the 'Foot' of the nib too, as I was not pressing the nib very hard into the paper when I wrote on it.

 

 

In this sense, I wonder if the 21K provides more Flex for Hard Pressured Writers compared to 14K nibs, as 14K by my understanding of physics ought to be harder.

 

 

Do keep the feedbacks coming in!

 

Thanks!!!

 

 

 

It has more to do with nib construction. I have a Sailor 1911 w/ a hard fine (marked H-F) 21k nib. They are not joking. It's a hard one.

 

[Strang]

As mentioned above, you need to pay attention to the designation on the nib. In my experience HF (hard fine) nibs will not flex no matter whether 14k or 21k. I have never had the opportunity to try one of their SF (soft fine) nibs so I don't know. But I sincerely doubt you are going to get anything near what most people consider a "flexy" nib here. The gold content by itself won't make a difference to the flex of the nib no matter how hard you press. YMMV.

[ANM]

Even though 21k gold is softer and will scratch easier than 14k, there is no relationship to be drawn to the gold, content-or lack of it, with the responsiveness when writing with one. Tempering, cut, thickness and other geometric factors in how it is made determine that.

[Tsujigiri]

21k is much softer. I was aligning the tines on my dad's 1911 the other day, and found that the nib bends REALLY easily, from side to side even. If you look at the middle of this page, you can see how much the nib can be bent around: http://www.nibs.com/beforeandafter.htm#REBUILD

As far as writing feel, there is no difference between the 21k Sailor nib and the 14k one.

[troglokev]

There is a perception that because a material is soft, it necessarily makes for a soft nib: this perception is wrong.

 

As MDI points out, the design of the nib is important. A thick piece of 21K gold will be stiffer than a thin piece of 14K gold. Putting a curve in a nib will also stiffen it.

 

From the perspective of materials science, it's actually the yield point (the amount of deformation that can occur without permanently changing the shape of the material) that's important in determining the flexibility of a nib.

 

The strength of the nib is the force required to exceed the yield point, whereas the flexibility is the force required to bend the nib by a certain amount.

 

The writing feel is a function of flexibility and the ability to damage a nib is a function of its strength.

 

For a given strength and geometry, a material with a high yield point will be more flexible than a material with a low yield point (i.e. it will bend more for a given amount of force). 21K gold has quite a low yield point, significantly lower than that of the 14K alloys used in pen manufacture. Thus, a 14K alloy can be used to make a more flexible nib than 21K gold.

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3564/3325617750_d659e1c6e3_o.jpg

 

Of course, that is not to say that it is used to make more flexible nibs! As pointed out earlier, the design of the the nib is as important as the material.

 

So, 21K gold can be made as flexible as 14K gold, but it will not be as strong if you do (as Tsujigirl found: I do hope that nib on nibs.com wasn't yours!).

 

All of which won't matter provided you don't give your pens to ballpoint users.

Edited March 3, 2009 by troglokev

[archie001]

The flexibility and softness of the nib will surely depend on the design and construction of the nib. The amount and weight of gold in which it is made of is only secondary, chances are you would notice no difference between nibs of 14K and 21K. I myself love stiff nibs.

[Lloyd]

The top-of-the-line Danitrio Sumo has a 24kt nib and offers flexability. Go figure...

[RevAaron]

Even though 21k gold is softer and will scratch easier than 14k, there is no relationship to be drawn to the gold, content-or lack of it, with the responsiveness when writing with one. Tempering, cut, thickness and other geometric factors in how it is made determine that.

 

Amen!

 

I've not used any of Sailor's 14k nibs, but the handful of 21k nibs I've used were all quite rigid.

[pensaremadeforwriting]

the Sailor Sapporo 14K nib has been a bliss,

 

it's not exactly buttery smooth, as it's a Fine nib (which in western is an Extra Fine, it measures about 0.5mm to me, and it's an optimal width that i can live with)

 

it's smooth and wet, not overly wet, with feedback depending on the paper used.

 

overall,

 

i found the pen too small to use unposted (which means, without the cap, inserted on the other pen end)

 

but i had a problem with writing pens posted, but pleasantly surprised when the pen writes better (in terms of balance) when it's posted.

 

now, it's my top pen for daily usage.

 

the nib is too disciplined that each stroke is controlled and it's a pleasure at its stroke.

 

but i am not using it for harsher usage such as drawing.

 

so overall, i am very happy with the Sailor entry fountain pen, the sapporo! which is small/compact and its nib is made in heaven...

 

 

 

which reminds me that nice things are not cheap

[troglokev]

The top-of-the-line Danitrio Sumo has a 24kt nib and offers flexability. Go figure...

 

Give me a place to stand.

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

The 24K nib is a special case, it is micro-alloyed. That simply means that you cannot compare it to 14K and 21K nibs.

 

In my hands, the 21K bends and stays. The 14K is springier. When I am writing with the nibs, the 21K feels hard and the 14K is springier.

 

I actually recommend the 14K. I have had 14K, 18K, and 21K Sailor nibs.

 

Dillon

[PatientType]

Don't know how relevent the information may be but when was choosing between a 14k and an 18k ring I asked the jewler about the softness of gold and the greater liklihood of the surface of the ring becoming scratched should I select the 18k. His response was that, while there was more gold in the 18k ring, the defining factor was the metal used in the alloy.

My white gold ring, for example, is actually much harder than a yellow 14k ring because a different and more brittle metal was mixed with the gold.

I'd imagine the same would hold for nibs.

[Carlos]

I have a Sailor 1911M with a 21k music nib and I've also tried my friend's Sailor 1911M with a 14k music nib. I like the 14k nib better. The 21k nib is a virtual nail... it writes nice but it is super stiff. The 14k nib has almost the same feel, but there is a tiny bit of spring which gives a little tactile character to an otherwise stiff nib.

[TheProf]

I have a 1911 with 21K MF nib and a Sapporo with a 14K F nib and I agree 100% with Carlos. Both nibs are pretty stiff with the 14K being just a bit less stiff.

[tsunami31]

First, define 'softer'. It's true that 21K gold is softer than 14K, so theoretically it should be easier for a 21K nib to lose it's shape. It has been said that anything above 18k is really unsuitable for a pen nib for that reason.

 

My understanding has always been that MDI and troglodev are quite correct: the feel and flexibility of a nib have a lot to with a variety of factors, of which the gold content of the nib is possibly the least important. The great experts (I'm not one) that I have read and heard will tell you that it depends on the design (shape and curvature being particularly important), thickness, amount exposed (think of the Parker 51), alloys used, annealing and some factors not yet understood.

 

I've often been told that the secrets of creating the highly flexible nibs used until carbon paper was introduced are lost - no-one has yet successfully recreated that flexibility. Although in the 20 or so years I've been collecting, some manufacturers have made some progress in this respect.

 

Gold nibs were introduced to stop the corrosion of steel nibs, before stainless steel was introduced, not because it is inherently better for a pen nib. It is quite possible, I believe, for a steel nib to be created that could be softer or more flexible than a gold nib.

 

I'm sure you know the critical factor for writing is the smoothness and shape of the iridium tip, not whether it is made of gold or steel.

 

Incidentally, having had the myth pushed at me many times that a vintage pen must be worth at least 'x' because it has a gold nib, I asked a jeweller about it. He took a nib and weighed it and gave me its value - it was a matter of pence (cents), not pounds (dollars).

 

The value in a nib is not in its gold content, but the craftsmanship that went into creating it - just look at the article on the Sailor nib maestro I posted a week or so ago.

 

Regards Richard

Edited May 9, 2009 by tsunami31

[MYU]

Excellent responses so far. I think there's enough testimony to see that the softness of the nib has little to do with the purity of the gold. It's more about the nib design and material treatment.

 

From what I've heard, the higher gold content (above 14kt) was a bit of a marketing ploy to attract sales. A person would expect a 21kt nib to be more prestigious and thus preferable over a 14kt nib. There is a seller from Tokyo Japan that sells many new old stock fountain pens with greater than 18kt nibs (e.g. 21, 22, even 23kt) and he'll play up the gold content without revealing the fact that it has no bearing on the nib quality.

 

As for smoothness and softness, I've seen very flexible steel nibs. I own several that have some spring to them, about on par with some of my softer 18kt nibs. And realistically speaking, as Richard stated above, the actual amount of gold in a nib is minuscule. The real cost is the labor that went into designing and making the nib. Thus, a superb steel nib could conceivably cost more than a nice 21kt nib.

 

I've got about 5 pens with steel nibs and I am "smitten" with two of them and enjoy the others equally with my gold nibs.

Edited May 9, 2009 by MYU

[langere]

Great physics and engineering lectures! I love all the expertise you all bring to this hobby.

 

I guess I am the only one so far who has both a 14k and 21k 1911. From experience, I can say that the 14k nib is a bit more flexible. The 21k nib is pretty much a nail, but I love it because it makes possible much greater precision in my writing (which is kind of sloppy to begin with).

 

Erick