Japanese Name for non-Midori Green?

[QM2]

Dear Japanese speakers -- or others in the know,

 

Could somebody tell me what is the name of the traditional blue-green colour that is used underneath the brown in the Heki-Tamenuri finish? This is not the Midori Green, but a different colour. As far as I was able to find, Nakaya does not call it by the Japanese name, only "blue-green".

 

Many thanks in advance,

QM2

Edited October 31, 2008 by QM2

[Taki]

Mmm...is heki the word you are looking for? Heki (碧) means either blue or green, and the character is read ao (blue) or midori. In Japanese, often green colors are called blue. We call traffic light blue, fresh green leaves blue, and mountains blue. Some linguists think ancient Japanese language did not distinguish blue and green.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Taki

[QM2]

Thanks Taki, that is interesting to know. If "Teki" is an alternative word for green, is "Kuro" an alternative word for red (as opposed to Shu)?..

[Renzhe]

The blue-green color is often translated as "grue." (and it's heki, from older "peki" which corresponds well with the Tang Dynasty pronunciation *biɛk.)

 

If I'm not mistaken, kuro is Kun-reading for 黑. Shu is On-reading for 朱.

 

But don't take my word for it. I was forced to cram as much Japanese as could in one week about 2 years ago. Most of that information is gone.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Renzhe

[QM2]

So, do you suppose the colour on this pen (described as "Ishi-me Kan-shitsu technique color version 'Green'") is Teki? It does not look like Midori.

 

http://www.nakaya.org/special/ishime/ishimem2.jpg

[Renzhe]

They call it 綠. See?

Edited October 31, 2008 by Renzhe

[QM2]

They call it 綠. See?

 

Heh, if you think I could have recognised that without you pointing it out, you are mistaken : ) My spoken Japanese is limited to a few converstional phrases and I seem to have a learning disability when it comes to Kanji. Thanks so much for your help!

 

QM2

[Bananafish]

Mmm...is heki the word you are looking for? Heki (碧) means either blue or green, and the character is read ao (blue) or midori. In Japanese, often green colors are called blue. We call traffic light blue, fresh green leaves blue, and mountains blue. Some linguists think ancient Japanese language did not distinguish blue and green.

 

Hi Taki! I think that's probably because in ancient Japanese language, as in ancient Chinese language, the character 青 (today's green) denotes the color of what's now known as 藍 (blue); whereas the character 藍 (blue) in ancient Japanese and Chinese languages originally denote the plants that produce bluish dye such as the Indigo plant (i.e. 印度藍, 蓼蓝, 琉球藍, etc).

 

I'm sure you know the saying: 青は藍より出でて藍より青し or in Chinese 青出於藍 (which means literally "green (blue?) out of blue (the plant)", but figuratively it means, "the pupil surpassing the master," or something to that effect. It's a complimentary saying.)

 

In ancient Japanese and Chinese languages, there are also separate characters for blue (青), i.e. 蒼, 滄, 紺, 瑠璃, 縹, 杜若, etc. They pop up more often in ancient literatures; seldom seen in contemporary ones. It seems that the ancient folks are quite specific with color terms.

 

The charater 緑 (midori) on the other hand, denotes the proper color green as we know it today; but it can also be used as a generic term for a wide range of colors in the green family such as 碧 (turquoise), 翠 (jade-green), etc.

 

QM2, if you want to be more specific than 緑 (midori), the color of that pen seems to be 青碧 (blue-green), a sort of bluish-turquoise.

 

I hope I'm confusing enough, but I think color terms can be elusive since they're sometimes specific to certain cultures, and often time-bound. IIRC there's a Japanese site that carries a chart of colors, but I couldn't find the link just now. Oh and Taki, if you or anyone is interested, there's a contemporary Japanese dictionary of colors that is admirably detailed and informative; should be available at Amazon JP or Kinokuniya.

[Renzhe]

Chart.

 

緑 is #2A603B

[Taki]

Hi Taki! I think that's probably because in ancient Japanese language, as in ancient Chinese language, the character 青 (today's green) denotes the color of what's now known as 藍 (blue); whereas the character 藍 (blue) in ancient Japanese and Chinese languages originally denote the plants that produce bluish dye such as the Indigo plant (i.e. 印度藍, 蓼蓝, 琉球藍, etc).

 

I'm sure you know the saying: 青は藍より出でて藍より青し or in Chinese 青出於藍 (which means literally "green (blue?) out of blue (the plant)", but figuratively it means, "the pupil surpassing the master," or something to that effect. It's a complimentary saying.)

I would say the literal translation of the saying is "Blue is bluer than indigo though it is derived from indigo," and it has nothing to do with green.

 

In ancient Japanese and Chinese languages, there are also separate characters for blue (青), i.e. 蒼, 滄, 紺, 瑠璃, 縹, 杜若, etc. They pop up more often in ancient literatures; seldom seen in contemporary ones. It seems that the ancient folks are quite specific with color terms.

 

The charater 緑 (midori) on the other hand, denotes the proper color green as we know it today; but it can also be used as a generic term for a wide range of colors in the green family such as 碧 (turquoise), 翠 (jade-green), etc.

 

I think you are correct about Kanji. What I was talking was the ancient Japanese spoken language before we adopted Kanji. Before Kanji we did not have writing system. Anyway, it's not that Japanese people couldn't tell the difference between and green, or different shades of the each color. Sometimes we used (and still use) 青 blue to describe green, too

 

[Renzhe]

The Japanese language could have been influenced by the character 青. Before 青, "ao" (or whatever it was back then) could have meant "blue" exclusively, and after 青 was adopted to represent it, "ao" would mean "green" by extension.

 

I think the original meaning of 青 was green. It was grass (生) around a well (丼). Source.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Renzhe

[Bananafish]

I would say the literal translation of the saying is "Blue is bluer than indigo though it is derived from indigo," and it has nothing to do with green.

 

I think you are correct about Kanji. What I was talking was the ancient Japanese spoken language before we adopted Kanji. Before Kanji we did not have writing system. Anyway, it's not that Japanese people couldn't tell the difference between and green, or different shades of the each color. Sometimes we used (and still use) 青 blue to describe green, too

 

 

What I meant was since the character 青 when originally used meant "blue" so the saying was really "青 (today's green but was then blue that's why I left a ? in there) out of blue" – I didn't go into a literal word by word translation. I hope you didn't take it as a criticism! Which it wasn't. I was trying to point out that ancient Japanese do make distinctions between colors, and so do the ancient Chinese; even more so than today I'd say, and that the color terms may be different from today's usage. I didn't consider the spoken language. There's an overlap between Japanese and Chinese written languages without doubt. My maternal side of the family is Japanese, and let me tell you it does get confusing :blink:

 

 

[Bananafish]

The Japanese language could have been influenced by the character 青. Before 青, "ao" (or whatever it was back then) could have meant "blue" exclusively, and after 青 was adopted to represent it, "ao" would mean "green" by extension.

 

I think the original meaning of 青 was green. It was grass (生) around a well (丼). Source.

 

 

That's interesting to know!

[Taki]

What I meant was since the character 青 when originally used meant "blue" so the saying was really "青 (today's green but was then blue that's why I left a ? in there) out of blue" – I didn't go into a literal word by word translation. I hope you didn't take it as a criticism! Which it wasn't. I was trying to point out that ancient Japanese do make distinctions between colors, and so do the ancient Chinese; even more so than today I'd say, and that the color terms may be different from today's usage. I didn't consider the spoken language. There's an overlap between Japanese and Chinese written languages without doubt. My maternal side of the family is Japanese, and let me tell you it does get confusing :blink:

I'm getting confused, too :roflmho: In Japanese 青 is blue, so it threw me off, I guess. But sometimes we use it to describe something is very green as an adjective

[Taki]

OK, maybe we are all wrong From Wikipedia...

 

Japanese

 

The Japanese word ao (青? n., (青い aoi?, adj.)), a very similar kanji character as the Chinese qīng above, can refer to either blue or green depending on the situation. Modern Japanese also has a word for green (緑 midori?), although this was not always so. Ancient Japanese did not have this distinction: the word midori only came into use in the Heian period, and at that time (and for a long time thereafter) midori was still considered a shade of ao. Educational materials distinguishing green and blue only came into use after World War II, during the Occupation[citation needed]: thus, even though most Japanese consider them to be green, the word ao is still used to describe certain vegetables, apples and vegetation. Ao is also the name for the color of a traffic light, "green" in English. However, most other objects—a green car, a green sweater, and so forth—will generally be called midori. Japanese people also sometimes use the English word "green" for colors. The language also has several other words meaning specific shades of green and blue.

[QM2]

Chart.

 

緑 is #2A603B

 

Thank you for the chart.

 

Basically, the #2A603B (Midori) colour is what I don't want.

 

What would you call the 綠 colour in English? (Or how do you pronounce it in Japanese?) It is not on the chart.

 

The colour I am hoping for, is somewhere between these two:

御召茶 Omeshicha #354E4B

青磁色 Seiji-iro #819C8B

 

Is that what the colour 綠 suggests?

[Bananafish]

OK, maybe we are all wrong From Wikipedia...

 

 

I posted earlier using my temp. host's account, as I don't have my computer with me! My apology. I was going to say thanks for the link, and I graciously concede to Wikipedia

[Taki]

Chart.

 

緑 is #2A603B

 

Thank you for the chart.

 

Basically, the #2A603B (Midori) colour is what I don't want.

 

What would you call the 綠 colour in English? (Or how do you pronounce it in Japanese?) It is not on the chart.

 

The colour I am hoping for, is somewhere between these two:

御召茶 Omeshicha #354E4B

青磁色 Seiji-iro #819C8B

 

Is that what the colour 綠 suggests?

綠 is midori My recommendation would be giving them samples of the color you want, rather than trying to explain it in words.

 

[Neill78]

OK, maybe we are all wrong From Wikipedia...

 

Japanese

 

The Japanese word ao (青? n., (青い aoi?, adj.)), a very similar kanji character as the Chinese qīng above, can refer to either blue or green depending on the situation. Modern Japanese also has a word for green (緑 midori?), although this was not always so. Ancient Japanese did not have this distinction: the word midori only came into use in the Heian period, and at that time (and for a long time thereafter) midori was still considered a shade of ao. Educational materials distinguishing green and blue only came into use after World War II, during the Occupation[citation needed]: thus, even though most Japanese consider them to be green, the word ao is still used to describe certain vegetables, apples and vegetation. Ao is also the name for the color of a traffic light, "green" in English. However, most other objects—a green car, a green sweater, and so forth—will generally be called midori. Japanese people also sometimes use the English word "green" for colors. The language also has several other words meaning specific shades of green and blue.

 

Midori is still a word that's in transition in Japanese. It has limited uses as a colour term. Most things that an English native speaker would call green are still "aoi" in Japanese. Midori is used more and more often to describe things and can be found on tags on clothing, but you're more likely to come across "グリーン" guri:n, the Japanese pronunciation for the word "green", for the majority of products. Young kids seem to be learning English colour terms at playschool and elementary these days, and are more likely to use those terms than Japanese words. Kind of sad for me, since I spent so much time memorizing Japanese words for all those colours in school.

 

Midori's original meaning is the "green" of living things. It has the nuance of "lush," "full of life," or "new." This continues to the present day and explains why things that are the colour "midori" aren't called midori, even today. A good example is midorigo, "infant", literally "green child" though you're unlikely to hear this term these days.

 

Neill

[QM2]

綠 is midori My recommendation would be giving them samples of the color you want, rather than trying to explain it in words.

 

Argh now I am really confused. Basically, what I wanted to know is, which colour green is on the stone finish pen I posted: true green or blue-green. But if Nakaya actually labeled it "midori" on the Japanese page, that seems to answer the question. However, that would mean that the pens in the first photo are the same colour green as the one in the second photo?.. They look very different to me. Does anybody actually have the stone finish "green" pen and could comment?

 

http://www.nakaya.org/wr_midori.jpg

 

http://www.nakaya.org/special/ishime/ishimem2.jpg