Waterman 52 Question

[Ray-Vigo]

I've read that Waterman switched in about 1927 from "Clip Cap" to "Waterman's". However I'm not sure about patent date imprints on "Clip Caps" (they appear by the rivets).

 

I have seen "Clip Caps" that have the patent imprints, by mine is a "Clip Cap" with no patent imprints by the rivets. Is there some way of dating a cap based on whether the patent imprints appear or not?

[Ray-Vigo]

Bump- any guesses?

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

The clips are a key to dating them. There are some old posts at Lion and Pen that get into this, but I haven't seen anywhere where someone lays is all out as to when the changes happen.

 

From what I recall - the first clips are from 1904-1905 and have "Patd. Pend." on them. I once saw one of these on ebay and didn't bid, because I figured it would go to big-time collectors - and the damn thing closed with one bid at 9.99 (not my bid) .

 

The next incarnation are clip-caps with a relatively straight profile, they have the first patent date from 1905 only, and would date roughly 1905-1910

 

The second incarnation has the 1905 and 1910 patents. This is, of course, the first clip one would find on a lever-filler.

 

The next incarnation has "clip-cap", is narrower, looses the patent date, and has a more curved profile. I think these date from 1923-1927, but don't quote me on that.

 

Then comes the "Waterman" clips, with I believe two variations, but again, don't quote me.

 

John

[Ray-Vigo]

Hi John, that's just the sort of thing I was looking for. I figured the pen I had was in that vintage somewhere, but was just guessing really. At least I have a general idea now that corroborates my guess.

 

I really wish someone would do a primer on these pens the way sites like Richard Binder's did on the dating the Sheaffer Balance by color and clip. They made these Watermans for some years, but it's harder to date them than others like the Vacumatic, the 51, and the Balance.

[msacco]

Hi John, that's just the sort of thing I was looking for. I figured the pen I had was in that vintage somewhere, but was just guessing really. At least I have a general idea now that corroborates my guess.

 

I really wish someone would do a primer on these pens the way sites like Richard Binder's did on the dating the Sheaffer Balance by color and clip. They made these Watermans for some years, but it's harder to date them than others like the Vacumatic, the 51, and the Balance.

 

 

For the whole clip lowdown see my question I posted to the Lion and Pen. I really wanted to narrow my 52 down datewise.

 

here's the link:

http://kamakurapens.invisionzone.com/index...entry7275

 

Mike S.

[Ray-Vigo]

Interesting that this thread re-appeared today!

 

I actually just bought another 52 over the weekend-- this time one with the patents on the clip-cap. It's also the fatter clip cap. I wonder what the date on that would be-- perhaps an early one. The imprint is also fairly good on the body-- I don't think that has any patents in it though.

 

Some Pictures, any information is appreciated!

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/SirMike1983/191156277_o.jpg

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/SirMike1983/191155888_o.jpg

Edited November 12, 2008 by Ray-Vigo

[Maria]

Dear Ray-Vigo;

 

I will be watching this thread intently. I just uncovered a Waterman hard rubber 52 with the very identical markings on the barrel but, it is appearing to be a very dark green color. Has "Reg US (Ideal)Faintly Pat Off then under it Fountainpen. The cap is missing it's clip.

 

The 52 has a heart in the nib, Waterman Ideal Reg US Pat Off

 

I certainly want to know the age of it, even though it is in an awful condition as it was put into an 'old cheese box.' I've dipped it since the lever is crudded in green and dare not tamper with it and leave it to professional pen doctors/restoring experts. But it does have that lolli-pop lever like yours. The 12 is straight/slim.

 

In the same box was a Swan, without a cap but--it also had a similar pattern rib like design and missing its cap. The Swan reads: Emblem of Swan - Swan - self-filling pen

Mabie, Todd Co. NY

Pat Jan 26, 04 Patents appliied for

Nib has the heart shape like the Waterman's nib but it reads: Edwards [emblem of a scolloped cross with 4 in it] Jennings.

 

And, found and unable to remove the cap is another Waterman that is brown and slim with a 12 on the end of the barrel's beehind. Cap Clip has the circle that looks like baseball stitch with Ideal inside of it, Reads: Cap Clip (Ideal) Pat Sept 26-05. I cannot see the nib and the cap is on real solid. I think ink has leaked and formed a seal. (Another case for a pen doctor) The barrel reads: Watermans (Ideal) Fountainpen

Pat. May 23, 1899 & Aug 4, 1903 (I looked at it hard with the best 9 power magnifying glass and it doesn't look like it is an 8 but--could be wrong).

 

So--I am being educated here

 

I like to know if I have something worthwhile restoring or selling.

 

Respectfully,

Maria

Edited November 18, 2008 by Maria

[Johnny Appleseed]

Dear Ray-Vigo;

 

I will be watching this thread intently. I just uncovered a Waterman hard rubber 52 with the very identical markings on the barrel but, it is appearing to be a very dark green color. Has "Reg US (Ideal)Faintly Pat Off then under it Fountainpen. The cap is missing it's clip.

 

The 52 has a heart in the nib, Waterman Ideal Reg US Pat Off

 

I certainly want to know the age of it, even though it is in an awful condition as it was put into an 'old cheese box.' I've dipped it since the lever is crudded in green and dare not tamper with it and leave it to professional pen doctors/restoring experts. But it does have that lolli-pop lever like yours. The 12 is straight/slim.

 

I believe the imprint on this one would date it after 1927, up till sometime in the 1930s. The Nib would be consistent with that time frame as well.

 

 

In the same box was a Swan, without a cap but--it also had a similar pattern rib like design and missing its cap. The Swan reads: Emblem of Swan - Swan - self-filling pen

Mabie, Todd Co. NY

Pat Jan 26, 04 Patents appliied for

Nib has the heart shape like the Waterman's nib but it reads: Edwards [emblem of a scolloped cross with 4 in it] Jennings..

 

I don't know my Swans too well. David Moak is the person to ask (he is registered here as dlmoak), or check out his book Mabie in America.

 

The nib is a replacement - are you sure it says Jennings and not Jenkins? Edward Jenkins was a pen store and fountain pen repair shop in Baltimore that had nibs with Edward Jenkins and the cross you describe.

 

And, found and unable to remove the cap is another Waterman that is brown and slim with a 12 on the end of the barrel's beehind. Cap Clip has the circle that looks like baseball stitch with Ideal inside of it, Reads: Cap Clip (Ideal) Pat Sept 26-05. I cannot see the nib and the cap is on real solid. I think ink has leaked and formed a seal. (Another case for a pen doctor) The barrel reads: Watermans (Ideal) Fountainpen

Pat. May 23, 1899 & Aug 4, 1903 (I looked at it hard with the best 9 power magnifying glass and it doesn't look like it is an 8 but--could be wrong).

 

The clip-cap dates this one between 1905 (when the patent was approved for the clip) to 1910, when the 1910 patent was added to the clip (as you see in Rays pen above).

 

The barrel imprint does say Aug 4, 1903 - that was the date of the 2nd William Ferris Spoon feed that Waterman used from 1903 up till the 1930s. The imprint was used from 1903 through the mid-late 1920s, so it does not necessarily narrow the date down much.

 

They all sound like nice pens.

 

John

 

[Maria]

Dear Johnny Appleseed,

 

Dear Ray-Vigo;

 

I will be watching this thread intently. I just uncovered a Waterman hard rubber 52 with the very identical markings on the barrel but, it is appearing to be a very dark green color. Has "Reg US (Ideal)Faintly Pat Off then under it Fountainpen. The cap is missing it's clip.

 

The 52 has a heart in the nib, Waterman Ideal Reg US Pat Off

 

I certainly want to know the age of it, even though it is in an awful condition as it was put into an 'old cheese box.' I've dipped it since the lever is crudded in green and dare not tamper with it and leave it to professional pen doctors/restoring experts. But it does have that lolli-pop lever like yours. The 12 is straight/slim.

 

I believe the imprint on this one would date it after 1927, up till sometime in the 1930s. The Nib would be consistent with that time frame as well.

 

 

In the same box was a Swan, without a cap but--it also had a similar pattern rib like design and missing its cap. The Swan reads: Emblem of Swan - Swan - self-filling pen

Mabie, Todd Co. NY

Pat Jan 26, 04 Patents appliied for

Nib has the heart shape like the Waterman's nib but it reads: Edwards [emblem of a scolloped cross with 4 in it] Jennings..

 

I don't know my Swans too well. David Moak is the person to ask (he is registered here as dlmoak), or check out his book Mabie in America.

 

The nib is a replacement - are you sure it says Jennings and not Jenkins? Edward Jenkins was a pen store and fountain pen repair shop in Baltimore that had nibs with Edward Jenkins and the cross you describe.

Dear Johnny Appleseed--I'm sure the Swan nib is reading " Edward Jennings. It has an open cross with a 4 inside of the intersection of the cross, with a scallop edge. I am wondering if it is a secretary's nib or something. :hmm1:

 

And, found and unable to remove the cap is another Waterman that is brown and slim with a 12 on the end of the barrel's beehind. Cap Clip has the circle that looks like baseball stitch with Ideal inside of it, Reads: Cap Clip (Ideal) Pat Sept 26-05. I cannot see the nib and the cap is on real solid. I think ink has leaked and formed a seal. (Another case for a pen doctor) The barrel reads: Watermans (Ideal) Fountainpen

Pat. May 23, 1899 & Aug 4, 1903 (I looked at it hard with the best 9 power magnifying glass and it doesn't look like it is an 8 but--could be wrong).

 

The clip-cap dates this one between 1905 (when the patent was approved for the clip) to 1910, when the 1910 patent was added to the clip (as you see in Rays pen above).

 

The barrel imprint does say Aug 4, 1903 - that was the date of the 2nd William Ferris Spoon feed that Waterman used from 1903 up till the 1930s. The imprint was used from 1903 through the mid-late 1920s, so it does not necessarily narrow the date down much.

 

The "William Ferris Spoon" feed Waterman seems interesting --at least these fountain pens pre-date me

:roflmho:

 

They all sound like nice pens.

I wrote with the ones that I could expose the nib to a bottle of Sheaffer Script vintage ink. All write smooth and dying to find out what the brown Waterman 12 has hiding under it's cap.

 

Thanks for educating me some more! I like the idea of 12 being so old. Maybe a relative of my father's used to write with them.

 

John

Again thank you John/aka/Johnny Appleseed; for taking the time to respond.

 

Respectfully,

Maria

 

[Ray-Vigo]

The 52 is back from the shop. The pen was an internet find that came with a claim that it was "restored". At the price I got it for, I was suspicious of that claim, but it sold for so cheap that even if it did need real restoration, it was still a good buy. It wouldn't fill when it arrived; it turned out the sac had melted in part.

 

In any event I'll be doing some writing with it this week-- the nib is a semi-flex, though quite rigid by Waterman's standards of the time. I'll have to add a note to the Waterman 52 review I did earlier this year about this particular nib.

 

Some research and guidance over at Lion+Pen has confirmed that what I have is a later 1920s era body, but mated to a late 10s or early 20s era cap. In any event the chasing is a match and they look nice together.

 

 

Does anyone have any more information on the Jenkins Company in Baltimore? I'm a local in the state of Maryland (though not from Baltimore) and am curious if I can acquire a native Maryland pen for my collection.

 

 

[Dennis B]

I don't know if this helps any, but here is a photo I did of various Waterman clips, roughly in the order they appeared. I do not however, recall offhand what years the various clips were in use.

 

http://www.parkvillepen.com/images/waterman/clips/clips1-2.jpg

 

Dennis B

[Pensee]

If this is straying into your topic I apologize ‘Ray-Vigo’, but recently got a 412 from e-bay at a very reasonable price perhaps because the clip was missing.

 

(Assume it would look like 3rd pen from left in Dennis B's photo (except Ag of course)

 

I wouldn’t think too many ‘spare parts’ out there, but worth a try.

 

Suggestions on repairman who might be able to replace it?

 

thx

 

--Bruce

 

[FlexiCat]

Regarding dating of Waterman's 52 pocket clips:

 

See Fischler, George and Stuart Schneider, FOUNTAIN PENS AND PENCILS: THE GOLDEN AGE OF WRITING INSTRUMENTS, Second Edition;Schiffer Publishing, Ltd., 1990. (Now available in a third edition).

 

Page 54 shows four caps in clear detail and gives the start/end dates for each style. Throughout the Waterman chapter, you will find additional photos of other Waterman pens with clear views of the pocket clips also showing clear detail.

 

Also helpful are the two photos on page 14 of this book, which show clear images of Waterman nibs from about 1884 through 1953. These photos will narrow the dating of your pen as you match the nib design on your pen to its pocket clip.

 

I hope this helps in dating your pen.

[FlexiCat]

P.S. Your pocket clip looks like those used from about 1911 to 1923. As noted in my post, above, comparing your nib design to the photos in the Fischler-Schneider book, page 14, will more closely date your pen.