Do Business pens really matter anymore?

[JDFlood]

 

 

"I think in most situations, a BIC shows someone that is comfortable being an individual contributor and is not going anywhere." - :ltcapd:

 

But I still bring a BIC red ballpoint for emergency situations.

 

 

Yes indeed, I have a couple in each briefcase. JD

[bilbok]

Billbock, you have priorities wrong.

 

Thanks.

 

Thank god I am surrounded by people who won't pretend to be your friend because you have an expensive watch or wear the latest designer clothes

 

So why do you need a fountain pen ? Use a cristal bic.

 

 

What happened to character and morality? Do they not matter anymore?

 

Beeing well dressed and having good taste is not moral ?

 

Giving $ to good tailors, good shoemakers and skilled workers who spend 20 hours on a garments they make with love and proud is not moral ?

 

Is really buying industrial cheap clothes, made by exploited 3d world labor who spend 2 minutes on a garment a sign of higher morality ?

 

Please explain because i don't catch your moral.

Edited June 29, 2008 by bilbok

[bilbok]

Wearing a shirt with a pocket is a crime.

 

If I see a "top executive" wearing that or even a collegue, I leave the meeting on the spot and find a new job.

 

I don't want to work with tasteless people.

====================

 

So what do you do when someone misspells "colleague"? I'd probably vomit on him. :ltcapd:

 

I am a frog so I don't speak English.

 

By the way, I am eating water melon right now and this is my favorite fruit.

=============

 

My favourite fruit as well. What is a frog? And no, I do not believe your comments about shirt pocket, but I do think you are funny.

 

Edited because I got it, you are French. More grandeur than the US.

 

Frog = French

[satrap]

 

Please explain because i don't catch your moral.

===============

 

The point is not to judge a person by appearance only. Of course a person should be well-dressed, but that is not all. A dictator can be very well dressed, and so can the Pope. However, the exploited worker you mention, may have stronger morals than the dictator. Mother Theresa may have never owned a Chanel suit and Fendi fur, but we know she had good morals and good character.

 

We don't want the original poster to get the idea that appearance is more important than character.

[nkk]

This topic amuses me. Especially bilbok, even though I agree with some of the things he says, especially about wanting nice things for me, not for people who know nothing,

 

However, the shirt pocket thing is a sylistic standard that is different in the US and France, and it is amusing to watch people describe it as having no taste whereas in the US, you are hard-pressed to find a businessman without a pocket on their shirt, no matter what level or seniority or taste.

 

Also, yes, pens do matter in business. I am only 17, but my father is a succesful businessman, and it is all with the impression. When you need to go to venure capitalists for money, they would like to see you wearing a nice suit (maybe not a boutique brand hand made and tailored for you suit, but at least an expensive and high quality Armani suit that has been tailored to fit you properly). It gives off many signals, one of which is that you have done something in the past that earnt you a lot of money, and that something was probably business. It lends trust to you, as they see what they percieve as your financial (and therefore the companies financial) succes. It makes people want to give you more of their money if they trust you will invest it well.

 

If you are not hunting for money, then it still makes a nice impression, and that always counts. If people see you as stuck up or cocky, that is too bad, as most people will not. And if you are doing anythin that deals with clients, they will percieve you as succesful, and, again, therefore more trustworthy with tehir business.

 

-Nkk

[bilbok]

Please explain because i don't catch your moral.

===============

 

The point is not to judge a person by appearance only. Of course a person should be well-dressed, but that is not all. A dictator can be very well dressed, and so can the Pope. However, the exploited worker you mention, may have stronger morals than the dictator. Mother Theresa may have never owned a Chanel suit and Fendi fur, but we know she had good morals and good character.

 

We don't want the original poster to get the idea that appearance is more important than character.

 

The person who judge WRONGLY people by appareance is the guy who told that $400 was a show.

 

I don't see why we go on moral.

 

Of course, a well dressed person can be as bad as a badly dressed person (though he is likely to be more educated).

 

This was not the point.

 

The point was : a guy who wears $400 shoes or $2000 watch makes "a show" and so will make client go away.

 

$400 shoes are not more showy than a $200 pen.

 

 

 

 

 

[bilbok]

However, the shirt pocket thing is a sylistic standard that is different in the US and France, and it is amusing to watch people describe it as having no taste whereas in the US, you are hard-pressed to find a businessman without a pocket on their shirt, no matter what level or seniority or taste.

 

Sadly, most people have a pocket in France too.

 

Also, yes, pens do matter in business. I am only 17, but my father is a succesful businessman, and it is all with the impression. When you need to go to venure capitalists for money, they would like to see you wearing a nice suit (maybe not a boutique brand hand made and tailored for you suit, but at least an expensive and high quality Armani suit that has been tailored to fit you properly). It gives off many signals, one of which is that you have done something in the past that earnt you a lot of money, and that something was probably business. It lends trust to you, as they see what they percieve as your financial (and therefore the companies financial) succes. It makes people want to give you more of their money if they trust you will invest it well.

 

And it shows you have good taste, a culture (you know how one should dress), a knowledge (you know how to select a good quality among the huge range of choices), and independance of mind (you know what marketing traps to avoid and stick to the best values) and that you enjoy life (you are not a boring stingy dude who saves up for his grave)

 

You can buy expensive stuff, quality stuff and remain poorly dressed if you have no taste and knowledge.

 

 

If you are not hunting for money, then it still makes a nice impression, and that always counts. If people see you as stuck up or cocky, that is too bad, as most people will not. And if you are doing anythin that deals with clients, they will percieve you as succesful, and, again, therefore more trustworthy with tehir business.

 

Logical.

 

Who wants to give his money to a guy who looks poor and worse who doesn't understand the importance of the image in the society ?

 

If the image was not important, we could all work in $30 track suits instead of cheap $500 suits.

 

But of the image is important, why sticking to $500 suits ?

 

 

 

[skipwilliams]

Actually, I'm not impressed by any technology that someone brings to a meeting. I'm much more interested in what they bring in their minds. And a nice FP says something about the person to me, esp if it's NOT a Montblanc. Anyone can buy a Treo or an IPhone, pr Blackberry, or whatever. It doesn't take any tech savvy to go into an AT&T or Verizon store and plunk down your money.

 

But it takes guts to come to a meeting and really take notes, listen, ask questions, and show that you're thinking. I could care less about how many time some guy's phone buzzes because his buddy is SMS'ing him about some dribble or whatever.

 

Skip

 

I agree with the PDA as the impression maker.

Shows your on top of technology and working in the future.

Other than some niches, conspicuous consumption, especially if you show up the boss, can really give people the wrong impression.

 

[nkk]

Actually, I'm not impressed by any technology that someone brings to a meeting. I'm much more interested in what they bring in their minds. And a nice FP says something about the person to me, esp if it's NOT a Montblanc. Anyone can buy a Treo or an IPhone, pr Blackberry, or whatever. It doesn't take any tech savvy to go into an AT&T or Verizon store and plunk down your money.

 

But it takes guts to come to a meeting and really take notes, listen, ask questions, and show that you're thinking. I could care less about how many time some guy's phone buzzes because his buddy is SMS'ing him about some dribble or whatever.

 

Skip

 

I agree with the PDA as the impression maker.

Shows your on top of technology and working in the future.

Other than some niches, conspicuous consumption, especially if you show up the boss, can really give people the wrong impression.

 

I agree. In the long run you should jduge someone by their actions, not dress. But the point here is the impresion. Why not MB? That made some sort of an impression, and that is what everyone her eis talking about. IF you are a genius, but dress poorly for your first meeting with your boss, that is what he will see of you. So when time comes around to the boss finding someone who can represent the technology well to investors, even though you may be the smartest, you will not be chosen over the second smartest one if the second is better dressed and will reflect on the company better.

 

And, why not MB? So what if they decide to patronize a brand that overall has sold out to luxury items, but still prduces fine pens?

 

And, those SMS messages are, many times, the person across from you telling the person next to you to do something relevant to the meeting, or to ask a question about info that not everyone in the room knows. This is especially if there are two competing entitiies in the meeting, or just in general becuase there will always be backchannel communication that not everyone involve knows about but is still painfully relevant to the discussion at hand.

 

-Nkk

Edited June 30, 2008 by nkk

[DrPJM1]

I do not believe business settings care about what pens you use as long as they are not gaudy. A Pelikan 800-1000 or a black Sheaffer's OS Balance would be better than a Krone Monstrosity.

[Sallent]

Rado and Modavo are cheap quartz watches and they only impress people who know NOTHING about watches. Worse = people who know about watches make fun of people wearing Rado because they fell in a marketing trap.

 

 

I beg to differ, Rado makes good watches at decent prices. They have automatic watches with ETA 25 jewel movements, including ones made from high tech ceramics that are virtually scratch proof.

 

Granted, they don't command as much "image" as Omega, Rolex or Breitling....but that doesn't mean they don't make good watches.

 

See, you equate a good watch with the price tag.....I equate a good watch with style and reliability.

 

One more thing....I have a gold Rolex I inherited that I hardly wear because I prefer my more stylish Rados to the tacky gold Rolex that makes me look twice my age!

Edited June 30, 2008 by Dr Ozzie

[Sallent]

You know what else? Am done arguing with your arrogant behind. Go dress in suits made out of money for all I care.

 

As for me, am happier having money but not flashing it in people's faces. People with money who flash it in other's faces are insecure people. As for me, am very secure in my status, so I don't need to do that

[Splicer]

Do you see more lazy people among people wearing $100 shoes and $200 suit or among people wearing $1 000 shoes and $2 000 suit ?

 

The laziest people I've met wear the $1K shoes and $2K suits. No question.

 

Besides, if you're in a business that's actually producing something worthwhile, whether it be goods or information, you're not wearing a suit. If I showed up to one of my old corporate jobs in a suit, I'd have sent a sign that I was interviewing on my lunch hour.

 

I have much more respect for someone who pays $250 for a pair of shoes that will last a lifetime than a $2500 pair which won't survive the season.

 

Most days I don't wear a watch at all. Half the time when I do I take it off and leave it on my desk anyhow. I use an $80 Fossil that was a gift from someone dear to me and wouldn't trade it for a dozen Tag whatevers. I haven't seen an expensive wristwatch I've liked the looks of in ... ever, actually. Every watch I see on a billboard and most of the ones in the supposedly finer shops are simply hideous to my eye. (To be fair, most of the cheap ones are hideous, too. It's not just sentiment that moves me to wear the one watch I think is handsome)

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I must go to my studio, where I'll remove my $350 motorcycle boots and wear my $80 sandals. I'll do my level best not to spill a $12 bottle of ink on my $40 shirt while refilling the $20 pen than none of my $50-$1000 pens can replace. If anyone needs to get in touch with me, send a message to my $400 smartphone that I'll be lucky to get $40 for by the end of next year.

[nkk]

Do you see more lazy people among people wearing $100 shoes and $200 suit or among people wearing $1 000 shoes and $2 000 suit ?

 

The laziest people I've met wear the $1K shoes and $2K suits. No question.

 

Besides, if you're in a business that's actually producing something worthwhile, whether it be goods or information, you're not wearing a suit. If I showed up to one of my old corporate jobs in a suit, I'd have sent a sign that I was interviewing on my lunch hour.

 

I have much more respect for someone who pays $250 for a pair of shoes that will last a lifetime than a $2500 pair which won't survive the season.

 

Most days I don't wear a watch at all. Half the time when I do I take it off and leave it on my desk anyhow. I use an $80 Fossil that was a gift from someone dear to me and wouldn't trade it for a dozen Tag whatevers. I haven't seen an expensive wristwatch I've liked the looks of in ... ever, actually. Every watch I see on a billboard and most of the ones in the supposedly finer shops are simply hideous to my eye. (To be fair, most of the cheap ones are hideous, too. It's not just sentiment that moves me to wear the one watch I think is handsome)

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I must go to my studio, where I'll remove my $350 motorcycle boots and wear my $80 sandals. I'll do my level best not to spill a $12 bottle of ink on my $40 shirt while refilling the $20 pen than none of my $50-$1000 pens can replace. If anyone needs to get in touch with me, send a message to my $400 smartphone that I'll be lucky to get $40 for by the end of next year.

 

The fact that you did not wear a suit was due to the corporate environment that your boss or comapny created. That does not necessarily mean it reflects the norm, even though it may seem the norm to you. May I also point out that you live in California, which has a generally more relaxed environment than the traditional business districts of the US, mainly North Eastern states. (That was not a bash on CA or you, it is jsut historically the western states have been more relaxed with their dress and style, and have had the artsy businesses, whereas the NE has had the banker/Large company corproate office type businesses)

 

As for cost of shoes, I have no idea why you think that every pair of expensive shoes will fall apart. Also, I agree. I, too, have much more respect for someone who pays $250 for a pair of shoes that will last a lifetime than a $2500 pair which won't survive the season. However, I have even more respect for the person who buys $2,500 shoes that last a lifetime, look stylish, and are made of the best materials possible.

 

Also, your personal taste in watches has absolutely nothing to do with quality. Just becase you do not like the Penerai watches or Patek Phillipe watches does not mean that they are bad quality. In fact, they are better quality than the Fossil (and, yes, I do own two $80 Fossil watches). Not to say that the Fossil is bad quality, because it is very good for the price range, but it just cannot compete with watches 100x its price. Personally, I hate the way a lot of Rolex watches look. They are too gaudy. But they are still made well and to last a lifetime, and more. Much like pens.

 

Latly, you say that the laziest people you meet are those that are dressed expensively? Why? Is it because they decided to make their life about trading oil, or something else that is immediately necessary to the economy, instead of physical labor, that they are lazy? Or is just you only met a small subsection of expensively dressed people, and they happen to be lazy, and you made a generalization from that?

 

-Nkk

 

[CraigR]

My 2 cents on the subject. I have been a business man for more than 40 years. During that time, I have certainly been up and I have been down too. My career started in accounting, went to business management and then to retail store ownership. Now I manage a small engineering company. Many years ago I received some very good advice from a valued mentor. He said I should always dress as well as I could afford. He meant quality and not flash. It was better to have one good pair of dress shoes than 2 pairs of poor quality ones. Same thing with suits and shirts. He advised me to be very careful with accessories such as ties, watches, rings and cuff links. Here again he advised me to go with understated quality. I have not always followed this man's advice - to my detriment. It seems to me the best way to approach the subject of fountain pens in business is to be conservative. Anything that is distracting is not in your best interest. People go astray in business by trying to be noticed for the wrong things. Be remembered for your honesty, dependability, knowledge and work ethic. Not by the size or glamor of the pen you use. My experience in business is that nothing goes unnoticed. People generally like to do business with other people that they trust and how you appear goes a long way to starting that trust to develop. We should not judge a book because of the cover, and yet, there are many millions of books purchased annually solely on that factor alone. Flash and bling have places in our lives, just not at the business conference table. Just my opinion. /Craig

[RajB]

I hope noone minds me chiming in - I have been following this thread with interest.

 

Background - I'm 30 years old, a junior doctor, and live and work in London.

 

My answer to the OP question would be - "it depends"! It depends on, amongst other things:

- the nature of the ur workplace and the existing moires about so called "luxury items"

- ur boss, and whether he personally would give a monkey's or not about the brand of ur pen (or suit, or shoes or watch)

- ur colleagues, and whether or not they're playing "keeping up with the Jones's" or whether they just get on with their job.

 

This discussion has segued into a (not impertinent) discussion about style/class/taste/fashion. And well it might.

 

Now my opinion, not that anyone was asking, is that theres a very definite difference between style, class and fashion, but that often they all inform each other.

 

Dressing well - which to my mind means neat, well cut, well fitted clothes/shoes made out of good materials, tastefully but not ostentatiously coordinated, is not something that has to be achieved by spending $1000s or by selecting only brands advertised in glossy magazines and on billboards. It cannot necessarily be done cheaply either. And I agree very much that having the discernment and refinement of taste to do this well is far more important and more indicative of your overall worth as an employee, if you're in the sort of workplace where worth and ability is judged in this way, than the brands you have selected to help you achieve this.

 

Now, a caveat here, just to be honest, my tastes run to the expensive, but noone would really know that to look at me, unless they wanted to analyse the cut and cloth of my suit or shoes or watch. My clothes present a relatively blank canvas, a clean slate, my watches and pens are expensive, but wouldnt necessarily draw attention, not in a hospital anyways!

 

And, in any case, as we all know, the really rarified and exclusive brands will only be known to those that have taken the trouble to learn, really learn, about the object they are purchasing and find the few tailors/cobblers/watchsmiths, that can give them the truest and purest examples of that object that they, for whatever reason, desire. A label dropping contest, for those that really care, is never on the cards, but an appreciation for expertise certainly is.

 

Let us not fool ourselves that the mass produced sacks made by Armani, the automated movements made by Zenith for their Rolex shells, the hubcaps made by Breitling and whatever else have you, are what worth/merit and taste are to be based on.

 

Again, my personal opinion - your suit/watch/pen should do nothing more than represent who you are, not what look you've gone for or what fashion you're following. And who you are, in a corporate/professional environment, should be nothing more than a neat fellow who is so capable at his/her job that you are able to overlook the neatness of his/her attire and just appreciate the brilliance of their work.

 

Apologies for my electronically typed incontinence! I hope I didnt bore or offend anyone.

 

Regards

 

Raj

 

PS - I have to confess, I don't care for shirt pockets, or short sleeved shirts, either! Though their practicality cannot be denied (I do not wear a suit jacket as I am still too junior), they do, for me, spoil the lines of an immaculately tailored shirt.

Edited June 30, 2008 by RajB

[Splicer]

As for cost of shoes, I have no idea why you think that every pair of expensive shoes will fall apart.

 

Every? No of course. Please forgive my hyperbole. There does seem to be a price point beyond which increases change the focus from materials and craftsmanship to appearance. When looking for sunglasses, for example, if you want ones that are likely to deflect a rock that's been kicked up from a spinning wheel in front of you, you're more likely to find what you're looking for in the $75-$100 range than in the $750-$1000 range. In that price point, the makers cater to those who wouldn't be caught dead anywhere that rocks might fly, and who certainly would never wear the same pair of sunglasses for more than a month anyhow, so why bother with durability?

 

The most expensive pair of shoes I've ever owned (nowhere near the $2500 mark) was great for a couple of years, then when I went to take this, my favorite pair, to be resoled, I was told that it could not be done. I had purchased a disposable item. My $200 Red Wings are on their fourth set of soles and have survived two motorcycle accidents. Not that they're much to look at....

 

I know that's an apples/oranges comparison, but "built to last a lifetime" can be had for a small number of hundreds of dollars and don't have to be made in a third-world country, where "built to last a season" is becoming much more common in the upper price ranges.

 

This is my experience with pens as well. The more I spend on a pen, the less likely it is to write when I take it out of the box. The makers know they're making jewelry that a small minority will bother to try writing with. It's disgusting and there are a few manufacturers that prove exceptions, but there it is.

 

Also, your personal taste in watches has absolutely nothing to do with quality.

 

True.

 

[edit to add: ...but anyone that would walk out of a meeting with me because I'm wearing a Fossil watch deserves the services of someone less talented than myself]

 

Latly, you say that the laziest people you meet are those that are dressed expensively? Why? Is it because they decided to make their life about trading oil, or something else that is immediately necessary to the economy, instead of physical labor, that they are lazy? Or is just you only met a small subsection of expensively dressed people, and they happen to be lazy, and you made a generalization from that?

 

The latter, I'm sure. I was schooled with the children of the wealthy, and still count a number as acquaintances. Their parents, having earned their millions, generally had and still have much more modest tastes.

Edited June 30, 2008 by Splicer

[DrPJM1]

See what happens when you feed a troll?

[Pippin60]

I have to agree and I also have a corporate blackberry. I work in technology and every so often someone notices my use of a fountain pen. although where I work its really just a disposable pen even for managers in the 200$+ salary range. Its not a status symbol so they don't care. If it was a status symbol I'm sure it would be a different story.

[tfwall]

Hi everyone i'm still a teen so I would have no idea about this topic but I would really like to know something. When you're at a business meeting and everyone pulls out a pen whether it's a ballpoint, rollerball or fountain pen does it really matter what brand it is or is it alright to use those cheap looking executive pens you get from business promotions? And when I ask this I mean big meetings with the boss or someone up there who has the power to fire you.

 

For the love of gawd, at least you have a pen. In the military, you were thought an incompetent idiot if you couldn't produce a black ballpoint on short notice. Now in academia and industry, I am continually amazed but otherwise bright people who show up for a meeting or conference and don't have anything to write with! Did they think the handouts were going to cover anything they might think about or want to remember? I'm not sure what the reason is, but it seems ridiculous to me that they come with no way of capturing any thoughts they might have or notes they want.