J. Herbin Violette Pensée

[amper]

I came across a website that mentioned that J. Herbin's Violette Pensée was a Methyl Violet formulation. Does anyone know if this is actually true?

 

I was also wondering about the meme that Violette Pensée is the color used for centuries by French school pupils. What is the source of this information, other than marketing literature? Why did the French school system settle on violet ink? Is J. Herbin's Violette Pensée the official ink, or is J. Herbin just one of many suppliers? As near as I can determine, violet ink was mandated up until 1966, or thereabouts, so what caused the French to change, and to what, if anything, did they change?

 

I saw pictures of vintage, larger bottles of Violette Pensée that indicated that at least that color, and possibly others, were available in larger bottles in the past, at the least a Courtine (60 ml) size, as opposed to the current Demi-Courtine (30 ml) bottles. These do not seem to be currently available, although even though I don't speak or read French outside of menus, the J. Herbin French website seems to say (as near as I can determine) in the Industry section that inks are available in a 1 litre size for custom orders.

 

The pictures of the larger bottles and related paraphernalia I've seen all seem to be of the "Parfumée" (perfumed) variety. Was the perfumed variety more common in the past?

 

Here are pictures from the Pen & Co. website's J. Herbin History section, which goes so far as to say J. Herbin invented the particular school violet formulation, as well as the first ink eradicators:

 

http://www.penandco.com/HERBIN/article/flacons%20vintage%20herbin.JPG

http://www.penandco.com/HERBIN/article/475.jpg

 

While J. Herbin advertises Bleu Myosotis as being an eradicable ink, I do not see where they also offer an eradicator solution. I wonder why this is so.

Edited March 30, 2008 by amper

[Viseguy]

These are all fascinating questions, and I hope that someone here comes forward with an authoritative reply. As for why the French caved on violet ink in '66 and what they used instead, my wild guess would be the insidious, unstoppable -- and, hey, let's admit it, handy -- ballpoint, but I'd loved to be proved wrong.

[amper]

From what I gathered re-reading the past thread on "French Ruled" paper, it would seem that after 1966, the preference was for either an eradicable blue ink (à la J. Herbin Bleu Myosotis or Waterman Bleu Royal/Florida Blue), or the Bic ballpoint. Which of course suggests a whole suite of additional questions regarding the selection of eradicable blue inks and eradicators.

Edited March 30, 2008 by amper

[Viseguy]

From what I gathered re-reading the past thread on "French Ruled" paper, it would seem that after 1966, the preference was for either an eradicable blue ink (à la J. Herbin Bleu Myosotis or Waterman Bleu Royal/Florida Blue), or the Bic ballpoint. Which of course suggests a whole suite of additional questions regarding the selection of eradicable blue inks and eradicators.

Ah, well at least it wasn't only the ballpoint!

[kkbach]

To answer your first question about methyl violet: Yes.**

 

Methyl violet is used in the formulation. In fact it used quite a bit in making dyes and inks. Though which methyl violet is used I do not know. There are three 4, 5 and 6 pararosanilin. They are i=often blended so it is probably not just one of them. (It also had uses in medicine and chemistry).

 

**Personal correspondence with the folks at Herbin.

 

 

[eharriett]

Resurrecting this post to see if someone can answer these unanswered questions from the OP.

 

There's another post right now about French school ink, which intrigued the heck out of me and I read that it was J Herbin's ink and a little more searching lead me to these questions which I was wondering about just like amper, who began this post all those many years ago.

 

So, 9 years later with a crop of brand new enthusiasts to the site (myself included), can anyone answer anything more than the question about methyl violet? 😀

[NicolausPiscator]

Resurrecting this post to see if someone can answer these unanswered questions from the OP.

 

[...]

 

 

Unfortunately I can't answer the question but I'm also interested in the answer. I did a internet research without success.

[ParkerDuofold]

Resurrecting this post to see if someone can answer these unanswered questions from the OP.

 

There's another post right now about French school ink, which intrigued the heck out of me and I read that it was J Herbin's ink and a little more searching lead me to these questions which I was wondering about just like amper, who began this post all those many years ago.

 

So, 9 years later with a crop of brand new enthusiasts to the site (myself included), can anyone answer anything more than the question about methyl violet? 😀

Hi eharriet, et al,

 

I haven't done any research on this; this is just a guess off of the top of my head, but I wonder if is has any connection to the Napoleonic era and Napoleon Violet?

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

- Anthony

[ParkerDuofold]

Hi all,

 

The reason for my reference to Napoleon stems from my knowledge that Napoleon had a fascination with violet... both the color and the flower.

 

It could explain why violet may have been made the requisite color of ink for French schools.

 

You can read more about here:

 

https://regencyredingote.wordpress.com/2015/03/06/the-return-of-corporal-violet/

 

 

http://chestofbooks.com/gardening-horticulture/Gardener-Monthly-V29/The-Violet-Napoleon-s-Flower.html

 

 

- Anthony

[tamiya]

the violet was touched upon in the cyclostyle/mimeograph discussion too

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/316481-nostalgic-color-mimeograph/

[eharriett]

the violet was touched upon in the cyclostyle/mimeograph discussion too

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/316481-nostalgic-color-mimeograph/

Well that's interesting. Just read through that thread.

 

I am 40 and I was in elementary school JUST as the mimeograph was being replaced by a Xerox in elementary school. I remember they turned the mimeograph on when the copier took too long (because the copy window had to slide back and forth for each copy). My only recollection of the mimeographs is a really, really loud machine that I could hear across the building, and when I got the sheets, they were purple, but flecked with spots and not nearly as crisp as the copiers. It didn't last long in my recollection. Like I said, a bit too young. I can remember "purple = mimeograph, black = Xerox" and I remember it being much easier to read on the Xerox (I can't recall ever hearing it called a "copier" as a kid, only a "xerox.").

 

I think this is kind of interesting. When I started looking this subject up, the idea of this being the (or a) mimeograph color did not occur to me. I continue to be amazed where these discussions lead

[ParkerDuofold]

the violet was touched upon in the cyclostyle/mimeograph discussion too

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/316481-nostalgic-color-mimeograph/

 

Hi Tamiya, et al,

 

Yes, I know. I participated in that discussion.

 

However, it is my understanding that French schools were using violet ink long before the mimeograph machine or Genetian Violet dyes were invented.

 

In fact, I've just learned tonight that this tradition was discontinued in 1966 and that no one is sure when it began; only that it was a very old practice.

 

Below is a direct quote from Biography.com, which states, that beginning in February of 1800, Napoleon started implementing broad sweeping reforms, "to many other areas of the country, {besides the military}, including its economy, legal system and education, and even the Church, as he reinstated Roman Catholicism as the state religion. He also instituted the Napoleonic Code...," and it goes on from there.

 

With as broad and deep-reaching as his involvement was in these reforms of seemingly every facet of French life; it would not surprise me if a uniform ink color for French schools would be part of those sweeping reforms.

 

At any rate, this was just a thought I had about a subject that never seems to die. You can take my hypothesis... or you can leave it... it's all the same to me. I have no horse in this race... it's not like we're arguing over an L2K or something else that's of vital importance.

 

 

Be well and enjoy life.

 

 

- Anthony

[tamiya]

No no no, not trying to railroad you offtrack Anthony

 

I hung around the Alliance a fair bit in my youth, je parle francais un petit peu and met a fair few native frenchies of my parents age... did get a gist from them that purple ink in school time was subliminal in their minds & had something to do with bonnie Bonaparte.

 

And his Napoleonic wisdom, which probably included dislike for the Teutonic konigsblau

 

But all that would be easier to explain than how I became #1 Mechanic of Mobylette.

[ParkerDuofold]

No no no, not trying to railroad you offtrack Anthony

 

I hung around the Alliance a fair bit in my youth, je parle francais un petit peu and met a fair few native frenchies of my parents age... did get a gist from them that purple ink in school time was subliminal in their minds & had something to do with bonnie Bonaparte.

 

And his Napoleonic wisdom, which probably included dislike for the Teutonic konigsblau

 

But all that would be easier to explain than how I became #1 Mechanic of Mobylette.

Hi Tamiya, et al,

 

No problem. You can't railroad me if it's something I'm committed to... I only wanted to stress that while I believe my assumptions are correct; it's not a topic I have enough of an interest in to continue arguing the point.

 

However, thank you for sharing the memories of your youth which collaborate my hypothesis.

 

Be well and enjoy life.

 

 

- Anthony

Edited July 13, 2017 by ParkerDuofold

[Al-Muizz 953]

@amperand @eharriett: you might have better luck finding a definitive answer to this question by posting it on the French version of FPN: https://www.stylo-plume.org/.

 

Happy to post your query there if the language/translation issue is a barrier (I don't have an account but could create one, had thought of doing so in the past and wouldn't mind a specific reason to do so).

[GreenMountain]

I went to school in France in a one room schoolhouse before 1966.  We learned to write on slates with chalk and then with pencils, then with very small nib pens with purple ink on little blue french ruled books.  I have a vague memory of writing with fingers in sand.  (If your parents were very generous, they would buy you a bigger pen with various nibs, but these were not to go to school or the other kids would get jealous.) Ink was was kept in inkwells in each desk.  My recollection is that the purple ink was much darker than Violet Pensée but I have no examples.

 

And no, I don't know why the ink was purple.