Saturated Inks Why ?

[Eternally Noodling]

RANT MODE

 

I have some inks that are so saturated with dye that, after using a single fill, the gills on the feed are all clotted with goo. Others crystallize and the feed looks furry. If I store the pens nib-up, they are hard to start and write dry and dark for two or three lines. No, there is no "glop in the bottle", either -- no biology going on in there. I paid enough for these inks that I should not have to get out my burettes and flasks and tinker with them.

 

A pen is not like a sports car that you spend more time wrenching on than driving. I write with my pens. When one of them begins to miss and backfire, I want to refill it and keep on writing, not take it to the shop for a flush-and-dry cycle. So my everyday inks are thin enough to show shading, thin enough to need a flush maybe once a month, and plenty dark enough to see. Among these are vintage and modern Skrip, Quink, a few Levenger's inks, and a few from Noodler's. The blobsters get written up in my "do not buy" book.

 

/RANT MODE

 

*gasp* *pant*

 

Paddler

 

I can not speak for them all....but I can speak for Noodler's. Our current biocide is I dare say the best in the industry for any pH neutral inks - incidences of mold are at 0% for production dating back to the use of our current formula...and if you find an ink too concentrated, adding tap water is an option! When used on the most common paper grades, however - there is generally NO NEED to dilute...copy paper, office papers, bulk legal pads, - i.e. the 70%+ of the paper market - that is what the inks are made for...right out of the bottle as they are...

 

We will never and have never made metallic salt based inks. We do not make those inks mentioned that form crystals...and the other ink I think you are referencing is a curiosity to me as to why it was ever made (it was hard to rinse out of a pen, but rinsed off the page in SECONDS with plain tap water...which is exactly A$$ BACKWARDS IMHO!!!). The fact also remains....those inks of the 1940s worked well, had decent dry times....and had a higher value added content than what the same companies offer today for more than 3 times the inflation adjusted price!

 

Also - forgers simply did not have the tools they do today...so, yes - ink changes if it is to adapt. However, it should NOT change the way it did with the large companies from 1940 to 2000! If I thought that change was just fine and dandy...there would never have been a Noodler's Ink.

 

Lastly, pens once were made with ebonite feeds....or at least well etched plastic feeds with good capillary action...and the nib tines were set far enough apart so that a ray of light could pass through them. Today I have found pens with OILS from the factory on poorly etched plastic feeds and with nibs set so tight that neither light nor thin sheet of paper can pass between the tines (which necessitates high levels of detergents in inks to cut through the oils and bleed/feather through the tight tines). Sometimes it is the PEN manufacturer and not always the INK manufacturer that hinders the fountain pen as a concept. Alas, if somebody spends $2,000 on a fountain pen it is often assumed that it is so costly....it will always be on the side of right even if the pen can only write with colored dish water. A pen should write with as many inks as it can given today's technology - and not be purposely limited by the manufacturer to a soapy and weak diluted ink. To do otherwise is to harm the full potential of fountain pens in general.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Eternally Noodling

[blueiris]

It's a matter of personal preference, but I also like less saturated inks, because they can be instantly recognized as coming from a FP rather than a nibless pen, and I like the vintage, weathered look of such inks - somehow more poetic to me than a intense ink with a more uniform line.

 

I agree with this completely. I tend to prefer ink that is not saturated. I might be in the minority on that point, but I do love many Diamine ink colors just the way they are. (Don't change those, Phil!)

 

I also might be in the minority in that I do not want to dilute saturated ink with water to get the results I want. I'd much rather have the characteristics I want right out of the bottle, for the sake of convenience. Typically, I don't need to have forge-proof ink, either (fade-resistant is nice, though).

[finalidid]

I have to agree with the more utilitarian point of view. I take notes with my pens, sign checks, dash comments to my neighbors. I use almost exclusively Watermans inks, which are not in the "saturated" range. I recently made the mistake of buying a Private Reserve bottle, because my local fancy stationer was out of Watermans Havana Brown. The Burgundy Mist LOOKED like it was going to be a brown / red in the demure, perhaps subtle range. But using it for just one fill, I decided it was, rather, how to put it? umm ... I guess ... GIRLIE.

 

Sure, it would be great for penning notes to Suzie in the back row during Algebra. And if I put little hearts over my "i" letters instead of dots; and signed my name with a smiley-face instead of the final letter; then I'd probably want more Private Reserve Burgundy Mist. But I don't. I got work to do, kiddies. So my Burgundy Mist is UP FOR TRADE. You saturatoholics can send me along a plain ol' black. Or a Diamine Registrar's ... something the Queen would use, ya know? Something NORMAL.

[Will]

Phil,

 

You've started a great discussion!

 

I like lots of different inks - both saturated and non-saturated. Its the variety that I like. Things like smear factor, how well they write with in a pen are very important to me. For example I love the Visconti Blue or Noodlers El Lawrence - but it doesn't write very well with my waterman carene but does in my Visconti pen. It also depends on the colour - some colours I just want darker - purple for example. There are some brands that are very saturated and I like the colours but i rarely use because of smearing (eg Private Reserve).

 

Therefore, Phil, if you go down the more saturated route then don't lose the great behaviour of Diamine inks. It may be that you can't. But do be aware that it is easy to label a brand based on the performance of one ink. I still would love you to produce a Penman Emerald look a like! (Oh what it is to be human and contrary).

 

Cheers

[Eternally Noodling]

It's a matter of personal preference, but I also like less saturated inks, because they can be instantly recognized as coming from a FP rather than a nibless pen, and I like the vintage, weathered look of such inks - somehow more poetic to me than a intense ink with a more uniform line.

 

I agree with this completely. I tend to prefer ink that is not saturated. I might be in the minority on that point, but I do love many Diamine ink colors just the way they are. (Don't change those, Phil!)

 

I also might be in the minority in that I do not want to dilute saturated ink with water to get the results I want. I'd much rather have the characteristics I want right out of the bottle, for the sake of convenience. Typically, I don't need to have forge-proof ink, either (fade-resistant is nice, though).

 

 

No need for a weaker dye for shading and the like - Golden Brown uses vintage style dyes with vintage shading effects WITHOUT dilution - and many others (Kiowa, Navy, Marine, etc...). Likewise, the "pastels" that sell for nearly $22 per oz. in the EU with the fancy bottles...it should be noted there are Noodler's equivalents with better properties (such as UV light resistance) for 1/3rd that cost and often less. We don't sell any ink for $60+ per bottle that costs under 12 to make. Acid inks are cheap - we could make an acid ink for under $3 per bottle...but they are the worst of all inks for fountain pens and thus we won't risk them at all and never have since day one. It is also easily observable that the 200+ year old acid ink technology is certainly NOT discounted much in the EU, despite its low cost of production.

 

Some of the shading in the conventional highlighter inks is extensive - using a lighter dye with fluorescent attributes within the core of the line and without any need for dilution. As for pastel shading effects, many colored bulletproof inks exhibit them naturally without any need for dilution...and conventional inks can with the addition of white ink. Shading without the attributes of being bulletproof...it's widely available, though as to the extent of its being a huge asset is somewhat questionable. ;-)

[Jimmy James]

Private Reserve makes plenty of inks that are well within the normal range. For instance, Midnight Blues and DC Supershow Blue are both outstanding business colors if you ask me. I'm not sure how anyone would arrive at the conclusion that an ink named Burgundy Mist would be a business color, but I have to admit that I once bought a bottle of Arabian Rose for my wife only to have her tell me it wasn't pink enough. Buying inks by name isn't always the easiest thing to do. I'll also grant everyone that PR's labels aren't very accurate.

 

I like a variety of inks. I have some Waterman, some Skrip, some Quink, some PR, some Noodler's, and a bottle of R&K. Eventually, I'll work my way through at least Visconti, Sailor, Diamine, and Herbin. This means both saturated and not saturated inks. I won't trust my Pelikan demonstrator to PR or Noodlers (sorry, Nathan), and I simply won't accept the idea that I should pour my Baystate Blue any of my other bold inks down the sink because I have plenty of pens they are suitable for as well.

 

From what I have seen, both Diamine and Noodler's are plenty successful. I'd mourn if either company felt the need to abandon what they're doing just to follow some perceived trend for or against saturated ink.

[Eternally Noodling]

I won't trust my Pelikan demonstrator to PR or Noodlers (sorry, Nathan), ""

 

 

I can't speak for PR....but what amuses me about the demonstrator fears out there is that Noodler's Black BEADS UP ON PLASTIC and is REPELLED BY MOST PLASTICS more than most (if not all) of the other inks on the market. It is therefore demonstrably EASIER to rinse out Noodler's Black from plastic than virtually any other ink - assuming you did not put the pen in an aging oven and cook it around the ink for a few years!!!

 

If you don't believe me - see for yourself by putting Noodler's Black on plastic sheets....other inks on plastic sheets...and then rinse off after a few hours....or after dry....or after days....or after weeks. Which one rinses off all the plastic sheets more easily? Hmmmm?

 

Stereotypes about ink manufacturers - especially one that makes inks in every modern category excepting the battery acid kind....is not entirely accurate to say the least.

 

 

PS

 

Baystate Blue is a 1940s ink...and is not like any other Noodler's Ink - completely different! It also does very well rinsing out of the Platinum demonstrator pens we include free with every Nikita, Heart of Darkness, Polar Blue, Iraqi Indigo/Violet Vote, Legal Lapis, etc....4.5 oz bottles that have the free eyedropper pens as standard issue.

[artaddict]

This is a great discussion - I'm learning a lot. Nice to have input from Phil(Diamine) & Nathan(Noodler's).

I love Polar Black and Apache Sunset.

Now I've got to try some Diamine inks!

[limesally]

I like both saturated and unsaturated inks - but I find that what I consider saturated in one pen might look unsaturated in another, etc. And as for shading, again I find this almost more likely to be nib-dependent than ink dependent, not to mention the paper absorbancy itself. Frex, with Aircorp BB I get very nice shading in my M150, and almost none in a Sailor 1911M, writing in the same journal with the same paper.

 

I like having the variety and ability to choose - as well as the ability to be surprised by the behavior of a particular ink-nib-paper combination. As others have said, I'd hate to see manufacturers pushed in favor of saturation over unsaturation. Having all the different choices is what makes this so fun!

[Jimmy James]

Stereotypes about ink manufacturers - especially one that makes inks in every modern category excepting the battery acid kind....is not entirely accurate to say the least.

 

It's not that I hope to stereotype your ink. I also don't think you'd try to lead me astray. I have the weakest ink I could find (Quink washable blue) in my most expensive pen (the demonstrator in question) because I'd be heartbroken for anything to happen to it. I have other clear pens I put your inks in without fear. I'm just more conservative with the pen I paid so much for. Call it irrational if you must.

 

Baystate Blue is a 1940s ink...and is not like any other Noodler's Ink - completely different! It also does very well rinsing out of the Platinum demonstrator pens we include free with every Nikita, Heart of Darkness, Polar Blue, Iraqi Indigo/Violet Vote, Legal Lapis, etc....4.5 oz bottles that have the free eyedropper pens as standard issue.

 

I can absolutely vouch for this. I bought some of your Heart of Darkness and Baystate Blue at the same time, and I reported to the moderator that I believed was collecting information about Baystate in different pens that the Baystate works perfectly in the Platinum eyedropper that came with the HoD. I'm a big fan of the Baystate and of your inks in general. They're still not touching my Pelikan.

[Eternally Noodling]

Call it irrational if you must.

 

 

Ahhh...well, I tried. I hope you'll see how easily inks such as Noodler's Black rinse off plastics of many types and grades...it is cellulose it likes, plastic it is repelled by! One day, eventually....such info will become recognized as more people "rediscover" it through their own testing and experimentation. The best I can hope for in that regard is that fear eventually will be overcome by reason. My hope is the renaissance still lives.

 

 

Let those other "safe" inks dry on multiple plastic sheets. You might be surprised at how much safer the Noodler's Black is when it comes to rinsing off plastics. I know it is counterintuitive, given how durable it is once dry on paper - but it is designed to be that durable on paper....and to rinse off plastics with ease.

[Pengrump]

Baystate Blue also does very well in Sheaffer NoNonsense pens (with a squeeze converter put in it)--if you have or can find some of those pens. It's a great combination. I have to say that Noodler's is in a class by itself as far as ink goes. It's plenty saturated but it doesn't do the weird things to my pens that some other highly saturated inks have done. I have had to water down a few bottles of PR and of Parker Penman, but so far, none of my Noodler's has needed additional hydration to function well in my pens. (Of course, if I keep any bottle of ink long enough for significant evaporation to occur, I have to add water.)

[Eternally Noodling]

Baystate Blue also does very well in Sheaffer NoNonsense pens (with a squeeze converter put in it)--if you have or can find some of those pens. It's a great combination. I have to say that Noodler's is in a class by itself as far as ink goes. It's plenty saturated but it doesn't do the weird things to my pens that some other highly saturated inks have done. I have had to water down a few bottles of PR and of Parker Penman, but so far, none of my Noodler's has needed additional hydration to function well in my pens. (Of course, if I keep any bottle of ink long enough for significant evaporation to occur, I have to add water.)

 

 

A flying squirrel! Do you have any? They are like wild pets in Massachusetts, extremely tame...you can hand feed them if you are patient enough. Noodler's was going to use some of our photographs of the Northern Flying Squirrel for an ink label (a prototype ink that had one color "float" or "fly" above another while one wrote rendering a brain coral pattern of colors that was visible if one used a broad nib). The costs of raw materials were too high, even for Noodler's - as each bottle sold would have lost the company $7 + !!! It was even more costly than the inks in our Russian series (almost all of which have triple properties - such as extreme fluorescence under a black light - Rachmaninov being the most unusual). ;-(

[MikeLip]

Let those other "safe" inks dry on multiple plastic sheets. You might be surprised at how much safer the Noodler's Black is when it comes to rinsing off plastics. I know it is counterintuitive, given how durable it is once dry on paper - but it is designed to be that durable on paper....and to rinse off plastics with ease.

 

Plastic sheets aside, I can tell you that Noodlers Black is a bear to get out of my Sailor Professional Gear! So is Baystate Blue. Other blacks like PR and Aurora come out easily. As do blues like Diamine Sapphire. Which appears to be, umm, quite saturated. As in blinding

 

Back to the original topic, as far as saturation, I like to have the look I want out of the bottle. I can get along with either super saturated or an ink that lays down a variable line. I change inks like I change socks!

[Lloyd]

Are all of Noodlers inks (allegedly) plastic repellent or just Black?

[KCat]

I like both saturated and unsaturated inks - but I find that what I consider saturated in one pen might look unsaturated in another, etc. And as for shading, again I find this almost more likely to be nib-dependent than ink dependent, not to mention the paper absorbancy itself. Frex, with Aircorp BB I get very nice shading in my M150, and almost none in a Sailor 1911M, writing in the same journal with the same paper.

 

I like having the variety and ability to choose - as well as the ability to be surprised by the behavior of a particular ink-nib-paper combination. As others have said, I'd hate to see manufacturers pushed in favor of saturation over unsaturation. Having all the different choices is what makes this so fun!

 

I know "dittos" are discouraged but this pretty much sums it up for me. I love 'em all. I stopped using PR Avacado because it was overwhelming my Pelikans - dark dark dark. But put it in a new medium-flow Prera F and it's a gorgeous, shading color.

 

The only saturated color I have had nothing but trouble with is brown. Any manufacturer. I'm keen to try Diamine's Siennas for this reason - they seem to be medium in shade, not saturated, not as light as their Sepia. If those don't work for me, I'm giving up on browns forever!

[Deirdre]

If you want to write with cola water, go right ahead.

I'm sorry, Deirdre, but I've seen this straw man so many times that I've just got to call it.

1) There are levels between fully/over-saturated and cola water/food coloring/other beverage of your choice. It is not an all/nothing proposal.

I know. I was tired and in pain and feeling a bit snarky. Apologies.

 

One thing super-saturated inks don't tend to get you is a lot of shading -- and I know people who like that a lot in an ink.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Deirdre

[Deirdre]

No need for a weaker dye for shading and the like - Golden Brown uses vintage style dyes with vintage shading effects WITHOUT dilution - and many others (Kiowa, Navy, Marine, etc...).

Nathan, I had a chance to try out your Chekov last night, and it does have some nice shading. Unfortunately, I noticed this effect first on my white tile countertop, but it was the same when I finally tried it on paper.

 

[katia]

My guess is that saturated inks tend to provide better contrast from the paper (and if color, bold colors tend to show up more next to black text) and make bolder statements ...

 

and... from a non-utilitarian point of view, they are so pretty and gem like. Sometimes, they look shiny too.

 

 

For personal use, I really like the tranlucent or powdery looking inks.

 

 

[Univer]

My opinions regarding the current highly saturated inks - and the reasons for their popularity - would probably sound overly harsh in print; they might sound, too, like personal attacks on well-meaning posters. Either prospect is distasteful, so I will refrain.

 

I will say this much, however: I tend to react very badly to a black-and-white view that divides the world into "heroes" - adherents of the True Faith - and "villains" - charlatans and swindlers. (Apologies, there, to Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks.)

 

We have largely unchallenged statements here - from an ink maker and from those who echo that company's marketing positions - to the effect that most current "mainstream" manufacturers are motivated, in formulating their inks, purely by a base desire to save money.

 

Is it not possible - just possible - that these companies are motivated, in whole or in part, by less crass considerations? Is it not possible that their ink formulas represent aesthetic choices that are simply different - not inherently better or worse - than those made by the purveyors of highly saturated inks? Is it not possible to prefer subtlety as an end in itself, rather than as a by-product of cost reduction?

 

In my not-unduly-limited experience, I find that when companies (or individuals, for that matter) tell me that they have figured out the One and Only Path to enlightenment, excellence, whatever...the time has come to take my custom elsewhere.

 

We have an unusual opportunity here: two ink makers - with differing philosophies - have graciously joined this discussion. Phil, I certainly don't mean to put you on the spot, and obviously you can speak only to your own company's practices. But I would very much like to know: how would you respond to the allegation that more "traditional" ink makers' formulas are purely cost-driven...that such ink makers have abandoned the use of high-quality ingredients?

 

That claim has been made again and again, and it has been met, usually, by silence from the "other camp" (so-called). When such assertions go unquestioned, they assume the status of received wisdom, and are then uncritically repeated by people who have no personal knowledge of the industry or the ink-making process. When I hear a fellow layperson, a person like myself - who may or may not have ever actually dipped a pen into a bottle of vintage ink - tell you, an ink maker, about how the ink companies have watered down their formulas to make them cheaper...well, I'm both amused and dismayed. The exchange has the grotesque hilarity of a literary critic "telling" an author how his/her book came to be written, or a military historian "telling" a general how one of his campaigns was fought.

 

I, for one, would much prefer a dialog on this subject. I hope you'll share your thoughts on the matter.

 

Thank you,

 

Jon

 

PS Hmmmm...post 666. That can't be good.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Univer