Saturated Inks Why ?

[Robert Hughes]

My opinions regarding the current highly saturated inks - and the re

In my not-unduly-limited experience, I find that when companies (or individuals, for that matter) tell me that they have figured out the One and Only Path to enlightenment, excellence, whatever...the time has come to take my custom elsewhere.

 

Reminds me of that quote, from some unknown famous person: "Seek out the company of those who seek for Truth, and avoid like the Plague those who have found It."

[Eternally Noodling]

Are all of Noodlers inks (allegedly) plastic repellent or just Black?

"allegedly"? ??

 

 

 

Black exhibits a static property on many plastics - a higher "bead" as it sits upon the plastic. It exhibits the greatest repellent quality of Noodler's Inks. The other bulletproof inks and most of the conventional exhibit the property to some extent, but not as much (on this forum not too long ago somebody posted a picture of Noodler's Black upside down in a clear barrel with the meniscus midway up the barrel and the ink held in the top half simply due to this property - one must be skilled to pull off that trick, as the ink almost always falls to the front of the barrel...but with some plastics one can create the effect if one has a very steady hand). I believe this is CaptNemo's: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1109/1413258875_7ae2d26a99.jpg

 

It is no longer exhibited when the ink is exposed to non-pH neutral inks, salts of any kind, and it can also occasionally coat silicone lubricants (the fine line of black seen on the silicone in a freshly lubricated piston filler). If exposed to non-pH neutral inks - a soak and rinse with household ammonia and tap water generally is the fastest clean up (though many people use many other methods).

Edited March 7, 2008 by Eternally Noodling

[Eternally Noodling]

My opinions regarding the current highly saturated inks - and the reasons for their popularity - would probably sound overly harsh in print; they might sound, too, like personal attacks on well-meaning posters. Either prospect is distasteful, so I will refrain.

 

I will say this much, however: I tend to react very badly to a black-and-white view that divides the world into "heroes" - adherents of the True Faith - and "villains" - charlatans and swindlers. (Apologies, there, to Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks.)

 

We have largely unchallenged statements here - from an ink maker and from those who echo that company's marketing positions - to the effect that most current "mainstream" manufacturers are motivated, in formulating their inks, purely by a base desire to save money.

 

Is it not possible - just possible - that these companies are motivated, in whole or in part, by less crass considerations? Is it not possible that their ink formulas represent aesthetic choices that are simply different - not inherently better or worse - than those made by the purveyors of highly saturated inks? Is it not possible to prefer subtlety as an end in itself, rather than as a by-product of cost reduction?

 

In my not-unduly-limited experience, I find that when companies (or individuals, for that matter) tell me that they have figured out the One and Only Path to enlightenment, excellence, whatever...the time has come to take my custom elsewhere.

 

We have an unusual opportunity here: two ink makers - with differing philosophies - have graciously joined this discussion. Phil, I certainly don't mean to put you on the spot, and obviously you can speak only to your own company's practices. But I would very much like to know: how would you respond to the allegation that more "traditional" ink makers' formulas are purely cost-driven...that such ink makers have abandoned the use of high-quality ingredients?

 

That claim has been made again and again, and it has been met, usually, by silence from the "other camp" (so-called). When such assertions go unquestioned, they assume the status of received wisdom, and are then uncritically repeated by people who have no personal knowledge of the industry or the ink-making process. When I hear a fellow layperson, a person like myself - who may or may not have ever actually dipped a pen into a bottle of vintage ink - tell you, an ink maker, about how the ink companies have watered down their formulas to make them cheaper...well, I'm both amused and dismayed. The exchange has the grotesque hilarity of a literary critic "telling" an author how his/her book came to be written, or a military historian "telling" a general how one of his campaigns was fought.

 

I, for one, would much prefer a dialog on this subject. I hope you'll share your thoughts on the matter.

 

Thank you,

 

Jon

 

PS Hmmmm...post 666. That can't be good.

 

 

 

I am cynical about this subject because some of those ink companies across the pond have asked us for quotes for the subcontracting of their ink production. A few of them are expecting it to be made for next to nothing. My natural conclusion is that if they are THAT low for a required bid to be accepted, then their existing cost of production must be very close to that low level. Given the current rate of dollar/euro values - it has been all the more frustrating and has only added to my cynicism about "their" cost of production. I also am very familiar with the cost of glass, glass molds, packaging, etc....and I have a good idea how many resources go into the packaging and how many are going into the INK! If I sound cynical, it is due to experience. Sometimes I think they are just fishing for pricing data to use for undercutting purposes....when they find out how thin my margin really is - they just vanish and pretend the inquiry was never made - ignoring my follow-up.

 

It is also a very simple example I gave...the New York made ink from the 1940s...vrs. the Parisian ink of today...let dry upon the page....run under tap water. Your eyes can be the judge!

[Rapt]

...snip...

 

We have largely unchallenged statements here - from an ink maker and from those who echo that company's marketing positions - to the effect that most current "mainstream" manufacturers are motivated, in formulating their inks, purely by a base desire to save money.

 

Is it not possible - just possible - that these companies are motivated, in whole or in part, by less crass considerations? Is it not possible that their ink formulas represent aesthetic choices that are simply different - not inherently better or worse - than those made by the purveyors of highly saturated inks? Is it not possible to prefer subtlety as an end in itself, rather than as a by-product of cost reduction?

 

...snip...

 

I, for one, would much prefer a dialog on this subject. I hope you'll share your thoughts on the matter.

 

Thank you,

 

Jon

 

PS Hmmmm...post 666. That can't be good.

 

Well as a product designer for more than one company I can most assuredly say that if said company is not privately held (and likely even if it is) the desire for profit is the first and foremost motivator.

 

I have been party to more cost reduction design reviews than I care to contemplate and the underlying premise is always "how can we reduce the cost/increase the profit of the subject item without an apparent compromise in quality?"

 

The key word there is apparent, because almost always it is impossible to save money without a real if not immediately obvious loss of something. I find it hard to believe that such large corporations as Sanford/Sheaffer/Parker/etc are motivated on the intensity of their inks for purely aesthetic reasons as opposed to financial ones. Water is still largely free in most of the world as compared to chemicals that have to be manufactured and used in dyes. Dyes, surfactants, and other special ingredients besides water are what you are paying for when you buy ink. The water is something you can add on your own to your own taste at much lower cost than having the ink maker add it, bottle it and ship it hundreds or thousands of miles.

 

The reason I suspect that the assertions are unchallenged are that its essentially obvious to anyone who has spent any time in the business of manufacture and sale of products. I say this because I routinely see it in all sorts of other industries as wide ranging as donut shop franchise chains and department stores.

 

There's my taking the bait of discussion and an attempt to get you away from post 666 as fast as possible.

[Jinnayah]

I dunno seems like a good value for the consumer, if the consumer is willing to add their own water to get the qualities they prefer

Ink is not just dye in water. Ink has a careful blend of surfacants and other ingredients to change the surface tension, which thus changes the way it lays down on paper, the speed with which it dries, how badly it feathers, and so on. Merely adding water to a overly dye-saturated ink does not necessarily make a good ink either. I have personal experience with an over-saturated ink that dry-smudges less with no darkness change when diluted 50% with water, but it writes very poorly at that concentration. The best thing I've found to do with that particular ink is either add an artist's surfacant (which is not exactly a cheap alternative), or dilute it with a weaker brand of ink.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Jinnayah

[Titivillus]

Why are saturated inks so in demand ?,

 

Why is any ink in demand? It comes down to preference of the person using it the same way that there are many different types of pens there are different types of ink. And just the same way that particular pens become hot items so do inks. Penman has been a object of much desire as well has Private Reserve then Diamante and Noodlers have also had a time in the sun. Some people like more vibrant inks, some subtle and some whatever is available. Trying to understand what people want is like doing market research for the next pen, you're going to get alot of opinions and maybe some partial agreement but in the end people are going to buy or not.

 

 

Kurt

 

[Rapt]

I dunno seems like a good value for the consumer, if the consumer is willing to add their own water to get the qualities they prefer

Ink is not just dye in water. Ink has a careful blend of surfacants and other ingredients to change the surface tension, which thus changes the way it lays down on paper, the speed with which it dries, how badly it feathers, and so on. Merely adding water to a overly dye-saturated ink does not necessarily make a good ink either. I have personal experience with an over-saturated ink that dry-smudges less with no darkness change when diluted 50% with water, but it writes very poorly at that concentration. The best thing I've found to do with that particular ink is either add an artist's surfacant (which is not exactly a cheap alternative), or dilute it with a weaker brand of ink.

 

Fair 'nuff. I haven't yet had that experience, or perhaps I'm not experienced enough to know that's the issue.

 

[Garageboy]

I'll use any Noodlers, Diamine and PR in MOST my pens no problem. (minus Bank Note Green)

[scribe75]

I find it interesting that Phil has not posted since P.1. Probably taking in the "conversation." I am no chemist or manufacturing person, just a consumer. I am not even absolutley sure I would be able to classify the many inks I have as saturated vs. non-saturated. I have Diamine and Noodlers, but also Lamy, Visconti, Sailor, Pelikan, PR, Caran D'Ache, etc. Some are clearly more saturated than others. What matters as others have said is what "floats your boat" on a given day, moment, purpose, etc.

 

From a non-manufactory perspective, I am guessing one of the reasons for Phil's question is to figure out what inks sell and how Diamine might increase its revenues. After all, revenues drive a business. I also seem to recall another thread wherein it was asked if Diamine (or was it another manufacturer?) were to make some new colors, what would people suggest. From a marketing/manufacturing perspective, we all delight at the different colors the ink makers produce. Diamine and Noodlers are two with an extrememly broad product line (throw PR in that group too). Let's think what's driving the breadth of product line? Sales. How do you captivate a customer and keep them, sell them a broader array of your products and drive revenues.

 

There are a few items I would guess at. First, at some point, doesn't the manufacturing process get over-extended with too many SKUs (I profess no knowledge of how inks are made, but cleaning vats and changing mixes would create downtime from production and therefore inefficiency, even in the "artisan FP ink" category). I would conjecture there would also be distribution "complications." One B&M store I frequent once carried all three of the above mentioned ink manufacturers, every color (just about anyway), 6-10 bottles in number on the shelf (not to mention what was in the stock room). There were probably 50-60 SKUs in all among the three. Oh, there were also a number of other manufacturers' inks carried as well. Sorry for the analogy Phil and Nathan - but just like P&G and Palmolive fighting it out for detergent shelf space, it was a war and a nightmare/headache for the retailer. Eventually one line was dropped and some of the SKUs for the others discontinued/not re-ordered. Allegedly, the one line was dropped because of "saturation" or "clogging" issues. I do not know if that was really the reason or just inventory issues.

 

Just recently, Starbucks just seemed to admit to over extending itself and its product units and has cut back some stores and a number of product units. Rationalization can be good. Cut the SKUs that don't sell; emphasize the ones that do. Separately, changes in ownership, pending or past, can also affect these kinds of decisions and business practices, but that's another story all together.

 

Second, from a sales perspective, I would also entreat both Phil and Nathan to read the threads in this forum where people express a desire for certain inks and can not get them. Granted, shipping glass bottles to far away places is not an easy thing, but there are many who look at the posts here, enticed by the rainbow of ink colors both of you produce and long for access to them. Want to increase sales? Figure out how to extend the marketing and distribution globally. Not easy, to do, but demand could increase as a result. I will generalize, even in an artisan sphere like this one, greater demand creates longer production runs, which leads to better manufacturing efficiency, which leads to better margins without sacrificing production quality (too much?).

 

What sells? Some saturated and some non-saturated inks. Ones that fit the moods of the people buying them. You both make great inks. I'll only buy the ones I like. I buy each ink for its unique properties after testing it. Saturation level will factor into the aesthetic I am looking for, otherwise I am indifferent to the issue mostly out of ignorance (other than how often I need to rinse a pen). I would not add saturation to an already successful ink and vice versa.

 

Did any of that make sense? Sorry to take this so far afield.

[Fox in the Stars]

Being Jinnayah's partner in crime, I share the experience she mentioned. Just diluting an ink with water won't yield good flow properties, even when the ink clearly contains enough dye to be cut by that much without suffering in apperance. Diluting with an artist surfactant works better to a degree, but that's not perfect either---go too far, upset the balance, and the ink will soak right into the paper and look washed out (there's enough dye, it's just not staying at the surface where it's needed). A really good ink needs a careful balance of dye, surfactant, a densifier/lubricator (I read somewhere glycol?), and who-knows-what that an end user should not be expected to tinker with, because it is complicated to do with good results.

 

As for my taste in ink, I like good shading. I of course like beautiful colors---some of those beautiful colors are soft and subtle, some are rich, deep, and/or bright.

 

However, no color is beautiful enough for me to put up with an ink that performs badly for me. Some inks I've used (some "oversaturated" and some not) have been prone to clogging pens, and I just push them to the back of the ink drawer and make a note not to buy that brand anymore, even if the color was fantastic. There are just too many beautiful and well-performing inks in the world to settle for less, IMO.

 

My favorite brands are Waterman and J. Herbin. Both are very reliable with good flow properties, and both come in beautiful colors, some quite strong (although I understand Herbin's palette is a matter of taste). I haven't used Private Reserve very much, but it seems to be behaving well in my experience so far, so I don't think "highly saturated = bad"---it's all in how it works in the pen.

 

Rich, beautiful color does not require saturation to the point of harming working properties, and I wouldn't think it was worth it if it did, myself. The value I look for in ink isn't "how much dye do I get?", but a good writing experience right out of the bottle.

Edited March 7, 2008 by Fox in the Stars

[Fox in the Stars]

BTW, back to page 1, thanks to Phil for explaining that about calligraphy inks, that pigments give the dark dark blacks. I should have realised that, but I didn't... ^_^;

[MikeLip]

From a non-manufactory perspective, I am guessing one of the reasons for Phil's question is to figure out what inks sell and how Diamine might increase its revenues. After all, revenues drive a business.

 

I have never understood the objections some people have to companies making a profit! Without profit, there is little motive to start and keep running a business - doing so is often a royal pain in the tuckus, and you need SOME motivation anyway! I hope Noodlers and Diamine get filthy rich selling ink. Then they have a good reason to keep supplying us with good product!

[Eternally Noodling]

From a non-manufactory perspective, I am guessing one of the reasons for Phil's question is to figure out what inks sell and how Diamine might increase its revenues. After all, revenues drive a business.

 

I have never understood the objections some people have to companies making a profit! Without profit, there is little motive to start and keep running a business - doing so is often a royal pain in the tuckus, and you need SOME motivation anyway! I hope Noodlers and Diamine get filthy rich selling ink. Then they have a good reason to keep supplying us with good product!

 

 

In an earlier post - the "SKU"s were brought up. I'm aware of the number of inks and that some retailers want every ink company to produce no more than 4 colors. The market demands otherwise - and we all serve markets in some form or another. I suspect Noodler's will never be seen in any Walmart, Office Max, Staples, or Office Depot....but we don't care to be there anyway. It would kill the company as we simply don't have that kind of capacity to begin with...and would likely run out of raw materials to make the less common dyes within seconds of having even a single order from a Walmart. Markets also differ greatly: just about everyone in India knows how to adjust their own pen to flow preferences using a wide range of different ink families with different properties - likewise people in China. Many pen users in certain other parts of the world expect a pen to write the same with all inks regardless of adjustments - and likewise all inks to write the same....without the need for rinsing, maintenance, adjustments of any kind...or accounting for flow preferences regarding feed designs. One can make a pen that works with only ONE ink - it's easy. My question has always been: what good is that pen to the user if he is limited to one ink with a narrow color and property selection? What good does it do for our hobby? It certainly does nothing for promoting the utility and versatility of our favorite writing instruments!

 

A car that only fills up on Shell extra-premium and fails when filled with any other brand? Would you buy such a car if you really needed the car for.....transportation...instead of as a showpiece "museumed" in a garage?

[kenny]

In general, I prefer the color intensity of the saturated inks. There are some times, however, when performance or flow is more important and I will go for a less saturated ink, such as MB royal blue or Waterman black.

 

For example, although I like the color of Levenger's Cobalt Blue, its smearing/slow drying features makes it unusable at work where I have to write in short bursts quickly and cannot wait for it to dry. And I have not yet found a pen in which my Noodler's Brittanic Blue Waves will flow properly in--even my wettest "fire hose" of a pen. I may have to give that one up, even though I love the color and love the Noodler's bulletproofs in general.

 

 

[Eternally Noodling]

Second, from a sales perspective, I would also entreat both Phil and Nathan to read the threads in this forum where people express a desire for certain inks and can not get them. Granted, shipping glass bottles to far away places is not an easy thing, but there are many who look at the posts here, enticed by the rainbow of ink colors both of you produce and long for access to them. Want to increase sales? Figure out how to extend the marketing and distribution globally. Not easy, to do, but demand could increase as a result. I will generalize, even in an artisan sphere like this one, greater demand creates longer production runs, which leads to better manufacturing efficiency, which leads to better margins without sacrificing production quality (too much?).

 

 

There is greater market freedom and access to mainland China, India, Mongolia, and Russia....than to the EU. We've tried to get into Italy, Spain, Belgium, Holland, Greece, France, etc...either the retailer never follows through after calculating the taxes or the EU adds a new tax or fee to get in the way. After finding out how easily Parisian made ink reaches the US and flies through customs....I washed my hands of it and have been gathering data for a formal complaint to our commerce department regarding the EU and how it unfairly treats American Ink companies - especially when compared to how America treats Parisian ink coming to its shores.

 

We don't make ink & cartridges in Austria, ink in Slovenia, or any components in the EU....it's an American product. Apparently, that's a problem! However, oddly enough - there are no objections or added taxes if a European based company buys our ink wholesale....alas....an American themed ink at the retail level might be offensive to Brussels?

 

After all fees and shipping costs were factored in - Barcelona, Spain...had a wholesale cost of well over the lowest retail price in the US for a bottle of Noodler's. Paris is similar. That just won't work economically. Odd that there is far greater ink selection for consumers in China than in the EU...given that the EU claims it is a "free market" and "capitalist".

Edited March 8, 2008 by Gerry
Fixed quote...

[Eternally Noodling]

In general, I prefer the color intensity of the saturated inks. There are some times, however, when performance or flow is more important and I will go for a less saturated ink, such as MB royal blue or Waterman black.

 

For example, although I like the color of Levenger's Cobalt Blue, its smearing/slow drying features makes it unusable at work where I have to write in short bursts quickly and cannot wait for it to dry. And I have not yet found a pen in which my Noodler's Brittanic Blue Waves will flow properly in--even my wettest "fire hose" of a pen. I may have to give that one up, even though I love the color and love the Noodler's bulletproofs in general.

 

 

That color was changed - e-mail me here about it and I'll take care of it and get you the current US/UK version. The original is now only available in India. It had very different properties and was well made for wide fissure dropper pens in particular - popular in India. Bi-gravity and certain other ink families are no longer even attempted in the western market (luckily, it was less than 100 bottles).

[Fox in the Stars]

Markets also differ greatly: just about everyone in India knows how to adjust their own pen to flow preferences using a wide range of different ink families with different properties - likewise people in China. Many pen users in certain other parts of the world expect a pen to write the same with all inks regardless of adjustments - and likewise all inks to write the same....without the need for rinsing, maintenance, adjustments of any kind...or accounting for flow preferences regarding feed designs. One can make a pen that works with only ONE ink - it's easy. My question has always been: what good is that pen to the user if he is limited to one ink with a narrow color and property selection? What good does it do for our hobby? It certainly does nothing for promoting the utility and versatility of our favorite writing instruments!

 

A car that only fills up on Shell extra-premium and fails when filled with any other brand? Would you buy such a car if you really needed the car for.....transportation...instead of as a showpiece "museumed" in a garage?

 

Ohh, Nathan, don't make me choose between your ink and my favorite pen! I don't call it my "ink" hobby! Besides, isn't it equally valid to ask what a choosy ink does for the hobby as to ask that about a choosy pen?

[scribe75]

From a non-manufactory perspective, I am guessing one of the reasons for Phil's question is to figure out what inks sell and how Diamine might increase its revenues. After all, revenues drive a business.

 

I have never understood the objections some people have to companies making a profit! Without profit, there is little motive to start and keep running a business - doing so is often a royal pain in the tuckus, and you need SOME motivation anyway! I hope Noodlers and Diamine get filthy rich selling ink. Then they have a good reason to keep supplying us with good product!

 

Mike - No objections here to making a profit. Rather, I encourage it for all the reasons you cite. As I mentioned, I like certain of the inks both companies make and want to be able to buy them in the future, not to mention other colors I may take a liking to in the future. Both companies have to make a profit in order to stay in business. Any way to increase sales should improve margins (but for the tariff, tax and other issues Nathan pointed out).

[Tournevis]

Let me add to the conversation by bypassing the more controversial bits.

 

I have always prefered "big brand" inks to the smaller brands. On top of the historical respectability of the older brands, I prefer the less saturated inks because of the shading and transparency [i'm a watercolourist; transparency is my thing]. Though I had seen a few and read a lot about Noodler's, the only one I have ever bought for myself was Tulipe Noire and I found that what I did not like about it was exactly that: it was too saturated and did not dry fast enough. I have shared with this board how I found I can only use it when it is diluted, so that it dries faster. I have also found it has more shading this way, which I like a lot.

 

In conclusion, I think I will stick with the less saturated "big brands" simply because they are less of a assle for me. I don't have to do anything more than fill my pens with them.

[Jimmy James]

Let me add to the conversation by bypassing the more controversial bits.

 

I have always prefered "big brand" inks to the smaller brands. On top of the historical respectability of the older brands, I prefer the less saturated inks because of the shading and transparency [i'm a watercolourist; transparency is my thing]. Though I had seen a few and read a lot about Noodler's, the only one I have ever bought for myself was Tulipe Noire and I found that what I did not like about it was exactly that: it was too saturated and did not dry fast enough. I have shared with this board how I found I can only use it when it is diluted, so that it dries faster. I have also found it has more shading this way, which I like a lot.

 

In conclusion, I think I will stick with the less saturated "big brands" simply because they are less of a assle for me. I don't have to do anything more than fill my pens with them.

 

While I really like the Tulipe Noire, you should know that it is not representative of the entire Noodler's line. A lot of the Noodler's inks are quick drying. It's my understanding that FPN asked that TN focus on not feathering instead of drying quickly. I believe all the Swisher exclusives are fast dry, and I have found Legal Lapis, Heart of Darkness, and Baystate Blue to all dry quickly.

 

ETA: Mind you, that still isn't to say that Noodler's should be for you. As far as I'm concerned, everyone is welcome to put what they like in their pens, particularly when that substance won't damage them.

Edited March 7, 2008 by Jimmy James