Saturated Inks Why ?

[Liverpool 1]

Hi Everyone,

 

Just a quick question 'Perhaps you shed some light on'

 

Why are saturated inks so in demand ?, i read time and time again how problematic they can be, can you share your views on this puzzle i would like to understand.

 

Thanks

 

Phil

[Deirdre]

They're prettier.

 

Inks used to be more saturated, then they were watered down to save $, and people got used to them.

 

Nothing's perfect, but I like saturated inks.

 

The secret seems to be flushing them out every fill or two.

[Ondina]

I agree with Deirdre's oppinion. Saturated ink was ink. Then they watered. Common sense is that if you buy a color you want a saturated color, we are all able to add water if we want to. Also, they look like it should.

[Liverpool 1]

I agree with Deirdre's oppinion. Saturated ink was ink. Then they watered. Common sense is that if you buy a color you want a saturated color, we are all able to add water if we want to. Also, they look like it should.

 

Fair point !! however in todays market dye strength is such that you dont have to overload the ink to achieve maximum colour, in other words ink does not have to be saturated at all so why complicate things.

 

Phil

 

[Deirdre]

If you want to write with cola water, go right ahead. I'm going to treasure all of my saturated inks (of which I have a great many more than I had 24 hours ago).

[Liverpool 1]

If you want to write with cola water, go right ahead. I'm going to treasure all of my saturated inks (of which I have a great many more than I had 24 hours ago).

 

 

I understand completely, it was just my observation as someone who makes fountain pen ink for a living.

 

Regards

 

Phil

[girlieg33k]

Prefer shading to saturation. Beautiful shading on paper just screams "fountain pen" to me.

[Ondina]

Liverpool1, can you tell me why on earth I cannot buy Diamine inks in Spain? Is ridiculous you can get them in the US or Canada but not here!. Maybe I sould get the franchise.....

 

And sorry, girlieg33k, I've tried to PM you about getting a deal on a Lamy Studio you're not using, for my little one. Can we contact somehow? Thanks.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Ondina

[Splicer]

Fair point !! however in todays market dye strength is such that you dont have to overload the ink to achieve maximum colour, in other words ink does not have to be saturated at all so why complicate things.

 

If modern dyes are so much stronger, how come there's still no fountain pen ink that's as black as the most watery india ink? Is what you're claiming applicable only to inks other than black?

[Liverpool 1]

Fair point !! however in todays market dye strength is such that you dont have to overload the ink to achieve maximum colour, in other words ink does not have to be saturated at all so why complicate things.

 

If modern dyes are so much stronger, how come there's still no fountain pen ink that's as black as the most watery india ink? Is what you're claiming applicable only to inks other than black?

 

Hi Splicer

 

You are correct, black is one of the exceptions to the rule, unfortunatly most black dyes are weak so in order to achieve a good black you need a lot of it and usually some orange too to jet it

In our Diamine calligrapghy range we use pigments to increase blackness not a good idea for fountain pen though !!

 

Regards

 

Phil

[Liverpool 1]

Liverpool1, can you tell me why on earth I cannot buy Diamine inks in Spain? Is ridiculous you can get them in the US or Canada but not here!. Maybe I sould get the franchise.....

 

And sorry, girlieg33k, I've tried to PM you about getting a deal on a Lamy Studio you're not using, for my little one. Can we contact somehow? Thanks.

 

Hi

 

I can't explain why it has not reached spain yet however if you are serious about a franchise let me know.

 

Phil

 

[Ondina]

Liverpool1, can you tell me why on earth I cannot buy Diamine inks in Spain? Is ridiculous you can get them in the US or Canada but not here!. Maybe I sould get the franchise.....

 

And sorry, girlieg33k, I've tried to PM you about getting a deal on a Lamy Studio you're not using, for my little one. Can we contact somehow? Thanks.

 

Hi

 

I can't explain why it has not reached spain yet however if you are serious about a franchise let me know.

 

Phil

 

 

 

PM on the way.........

[Pengrump]

Saturated inks simply provide the most intense colors, unless they are so saturated that they look black coming out of a pen with a moregenerous ink flow. That being said, I have had to water down a few saturated inks because the dye concentration was so great that it interfered with ink flow..

 

BTW, Diamine inks are among my favorites for the combination of color that is intense enough, combined with good color variety, and shading potential. I just plain like them, which is why I have about twenty bottles and will keep buying more.

[rogerb]

I'd be a potential customer/agent/whatever, Ondina.....I don't know in what part of Spain you are?

Parker & Waterman are reasonably available around here but that's about it.

 

I have only one Diamine (a swop with a UK member for a spare bott of Tulipe Noire) but I do love the colour (Imp Purp).

 

I'm not sure what 'saturated' means, if it isn't a 'rich, strong colour'......if you can achieve that without potential 'pen-clogging', that sounds great!

 

[i also like the 3 (small) botts of Herbin which I got delivered, very easily, here for 17.70 Euros....but I am still looking for a nice bright Emerald (ink, not stone!) and a 'safe' bright red. Herbins seem to be more 'pretty', almost 'pastel' colours....love the Cyclamen & Reseda.]

Edited March 6, 2008 by rogerb

[Jinnayah]

If you want to write with cola water, go right ahead.

I'm sorry, Deirdre, but I've seen this straw man so many times that I've just got to call it.

1) There are levels between fully/over-saturated and cola water/food coloring/other beverage of your choice. It is not an all/nothing proposal.

2) Some inks out there are over-saturated, in the scientific sense, to the detriment of the ink's quality. They have so much dye in them that it falls out of solution, adversely affects the writing properties of the ink, and some of them can be significantly diluted without losing color. This excessive dye is not a sign of quality; this is a poor manufacturing balance. A quality ink has a balance of dye to get the desire color (in this case, the deepest color possible from the dye) with good flow properties.

 

This is not to say that all of the inks known as "saturated" are bad inks. Some do have that good balance of deep color and good properties. But high levels of dye are not, in themselves, enough to make a good ink.

[MikeLip]

Once again I find myself on middle ground. I just got a bottle of Diamine Sapphine Blue and just love it in my wet writing pens - lots and lots of color that pops off a page. I also like less saturated colors that show line variation - it just says "fountain pen" to me. So give me both to use according to my mood!

[Rapt]

If you want to write with cola water, go right ahead.

I'm sorry, Deirdre, but I've seen this straw man so many times that I've just got to call it.

1) There are levels between fully/over-saturated and cola water/food coloring/other beverage of your choice. It is not an all/nothing proposal.

2) Some inks out there are over-saturated, in the scientific sense, to the detriment of the ink's quality. They have so much dye in them that it falls out of solution, adversely affects the writing properties of the ink, and some of them can be significantly diluted without losing color. This excessive dye is not a sign of quality; this is a poor manufacturing balance. A quality ink has a balance of dye to get the desire color (in this case, the deepest color possible from the dye) with good flow properties.

 

This is not to say that all of the inks known as "saturated" are bad inks. Some do have that good balance of deep color and good properties. But high levels of dye are not, in themselves, enough to make a good ink.

 

I dunno seems like a good value for the consumer, if the consumer is willing to add their own water to get the qualities they prefer, rather than having it determined for them by the ink maker. Its quite easy and cheap to add water. Its less so to remove it consistently and reliably, let alone the fact that you paid a LOT for that water.

 

I'd rather pay for dye than water. Water I have lots of.

[Blade Runner]

It's a matter of personal preference, but I also like less saturated inks, because they can be instantly recognized as coming from a FP rather than a nibless pen, and I like the vintage, weathered look of such inks - somehow more poetic to me than a intense ink with a more uniform line. I think part of my preference comes from using F and M nibs that show less shading than wider nibs to start with, so when I use a saturated ink, it looks too similar to my rollerballs.

[Eternally Noodling]

 

 

I dunno seems like a good value for the consumer, if the consumer is willing to add their own water to get the qualities they prefer, rather than having it determined for them by the ink maker. Its quite easy and cheap to add water. Its less so to remove it consistently and reliably, let alone the fact that you paid a LOT for that water.

 

I'd rather pay for dye than water. Water I have lots of.

 

 

The slow death of the fountain pen vrs. the rollerball bagan when 1940s and 1950s inks entered the 1960s....because from that decade on the major manufacturers reduced their dye content with claims of "safety"...while rollerball makers and companies such as Sakura bragged about durability and utility. A corporate entity reduces dye content for one reason only....and its NOT the "safety" argument!

 

What they don't want to admit too is the simple fact that rare dyes, durable dyes, UV light resistance, bleach resistance, resisting the tools of the forger....it all COSTS MORE MONEY TO MANUFACTURE...(and their margins are HUGE!). There is a Parisian made ink that was once upon a time made in New York - take a still good bottle of the New York made ink from about 1940 or so....put a swatch on a page, then put a swatch of the modern stuff from Paris. No need to test it with bleach or even UV light....just run your tap water over it and look at the difference. Which one do you think was worth more for your hard earned dollar? Which one will your grandchildren have a probable chance of reading?

 

What ink you buy is entirely your decision....but people should know - there are indeed alternatives to the larger companies that will provide access to the rare dyes, to the extremely durable dyes, to the vintage...and to the most modern ink technologies available to science. The hobby will grow only when fountain pens offer more durability/utility from their produced lines and more options in general than any other writing instruments.

 

Reducing dye content will only reduce the number of fountain pen users.

 

Just my $0.02

[Paddler]

RANT MODE

 

I have some inks that are so saturated with dye that, after using a single fill, the gills on the feed are all clotted with goo. Others crystallize and the feed looks furry. If I store the pens nib-up, they are hard to start and write dry and dark for two or three lines. No, there is no "glop in the bottle", either -- no biology going on in there. I paid enough for these inks that I should not have to get out my burettes and flasks and tinker with them.

 

A pen is not like a sports car that you spend more time wrenching on than driving. I write with my pens. When one of them begins to miss and backfire, I want to refill it and keep on writing, not take it to the shop for a flush-and-dry cycle. So my everyday inks are thin enough to show shading, thin enough to need a flush maybe once a month, and plenty dark enough to see. Among these are vintage and modern Skrip, Quink, a few Levenger's inks, and a few from Noodler's. The blobsters get written up in my "do not buy" book.

 

/RANT MODE

 

*gasp* *pant*

 

Paddler