Is pelikan 4001 royal blue corrosive?

[Paul Leong]

I bought and used pelikan 4001 royal blue on my m600 and lamy safari. The ink flow is wonderful. The m600 can be left uncapped longer than when it is filled with noodler's legal black. This is particularly useful when I take notes with it.

 

However, I recently read that pelikan 4001 blue has a pH of 2.7. Will this corrode my pens?

[*david*]

No, it won't corrode your pens. Use it and don't worry.

[Pariah Zero]

No, it won't corrode your pens. Use it and don't worry.

 

For those that wonder how an acidic ink won't corrode: Corrosion isn't just a function of acid/base. There are other factors as well.

 

Some very neutral solutions will corrode metals - for instance, mercury (which is mildly basic) will corrode aluminum so fast you can watch it happen. In WWII, the French resistance was given tubes of a mercury paste to smear on airplanes, which would cause the airplanes to fall apart, often while still on the ground.

 

Mercury can also dissolve gold and silver - a property that is used for some forms of mining.

 

So while pH can have an effect, it's far from the only source of corrosion. Some metals simply won't react with certain acids.

 

For example if you were to drop a slug of gold and a slug of copper into concentrated hydrochloric acid (concentrated to a pH of -1, which is possible with HCl), the Gold will corrode, and even dissolve in this stuff, but Copper will remain unscathed, as HCl can't do anything to copper.

 

And we all know how quickly copper can oxidize... the Statue of Liberty wasn't always blue-green

 

Even gold will corrode in the presence of chlorine, fluorine, and cyanide.

 

So the real trick is to formulate an ink that won't corrode the metals used to make fountain pen nibs. It takes some knowledge of chemistry, but it's not an impossible task, and it's very possible to have an ink that has a non-neutral pH that is about as safe as water to a fountain pen nib.

 

Part of this is because water is itself pretty corrosive stuff, but that's why we choose nib materials that don't corrode much (if at all) in water.

 

It's also possible to have an ink that's safe for a fountain pen, but will eat aluminum foil.

[Paul Leong]

Thank you for your replies.

 

I am using pelikan 4001 brilliant black too. M600 loaded with this ink can be left for as long as 21 minutes uncappled and untouched on the table and still writes fine. The nib may skip on starting but I guess I need to get the angle right (just bought the pen).

 

I may try to load half of the pen with pelikan ink and then dip the nib into noddler's black and fill up the remainder of the pen, just to get the best of both inks i.e. permanency and ease of flow.

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2007 by Paul Leong

[Pariah Zero]

I may try to load half of the pen with pelikan ink and then dip the nib into noddler's black and fill up the remainder of the pen, just to get the best of both inks i.e. permanency and ease of flow.

 

If the warnings made by Noodler's are correct, you won't get permanency by mixing noodler's in. Noodler's states rather clearly that if you mix their 'bulletproof' inks, it will lose its permanency.

 

Thus saith the Noodler's web site:

One word of caution - if mixed with conventional ink the fraud proof ink WILL REVERT TO CONVENTIONAL INK and all those properties will be lost. It is a delicate formula best left alone if one wants the features to remain constant.

 

And there are several kinds of Noodler's black, all with different flow properties: Polar Black (thinner at room temp, won't freeze before you do), Eel Black, and regular black, all of which are bulletproof.

 

So if permanency is what you want, I'd suggest seeing if one of the other Noodler's blacks will give you the flow properties you're looking for.

 

[Paul Leong]

I may try to load half of the pen with pelikan ink and then dip the nib into noddler's black and fill up the remainder of the pen, just to get the best of both inks i.e. permanency and ease of flow.

 

If the warnings made by Noodler's are correct, you won't get permanency by mixing noodler's in. Noodler's states rather clearly that if you mix their 'bulletproof' inks, it will lose its permanency.

 

Thus saith the Noodler's web site:

One word of caution - if mixed with conventional ink the fraud proof ink WILL REVERT TO CONVENTIONAL INK and all those properties will be lost. It is a delicate formula best left alone if one wants the features to remain constant.

 

And there are several kinds of Noodler's black, all with different flow properties: Polar Black (thinner at room temp, won't freeze before you do), Eel Black, and regular black, all of which are bulletproof.

 

So if permanency is what you want, I'd suggest seeing if one of the other Noodler's blacks will give you the flow properties you're looking for.

I went and bought noodler's polar blue and eel blue after your advise. I flushed and loaded my m600 and safari with polar blue, expert II with eel blue. All pens were left alone uncapped for 15 minutes. They all started without a skip after that period.

 

Polar blue is slightly darker than eel.

 

Thanks for your advise.

[FrankB]

Paul, welcome to FPN. I hope you enjoy your time here.

 

Thanks for this thread. I have learned somehting about ink I never knew. As for the Pel Royal Blue, I have used it since about 1977 and I have yet to have problems with any of my pens because of it.

[James P]

And there are several kinds of Noodler's black, all with different flow properties: Polar Black (thinner at room temp, won't freeze before you do), Eel Black, and regular black, all of which are bulletproof.

 

Good advice so far, and I'm learning a lot about chemistry! One minor correction, though. Noodler's makes two black inks at the moment. Black, a/k/a "bulletproof" black; and Polar black. Polar Black is also an "eel" ink, which means it has lubricating properties in addition to being highly freeze-resistant.

 

James

 

[Pariah Zero]

Good advice so far, and I'm learning a lot about chemistry! One minor correction, though. Noodler's makes two black inks at the moment. Black, a/k/a "bulletproof" black; and Polar black. Polar Black is also an "eel" ink, which means it has lubricating properties in addition to being highly freeze-resistant.

 

Well, here's my tally:

 

Polar Black: (This is an eel, but it has a polar bear on the label, and won't freeze before you do)

Eel Black: Also an eel ink, without a polar bear. This stuff will freeze.

"Bulletproof" Black (the usual)

Old Manhattan Black (Available only through fountainpenhospital.com - this is an eternal ink, meaning it's waterproof, but not 'bulletproof')

[Viseguy]

Good advice so far, and I'm learning a lot about chemistry! One minor correction, though. Noodler's makes two black inks at the moment. Black, a/k/a "bulletproof" black; and Polar black. Polar Black is also an "eel" ink, which means it has lubricating properties in addition to being highly freeze-resistant.

 

Well, here's my tally:

 

Polar Black: (This is an eel, but it has a polar bear on the label, and won't freeze before you do)

Eel Black: Also an eel ink, without a polar bear. This stuff will freeze.

"Bulletproof" Black (the usual)

Old Manhattan Black (Available only through fountainpenhospital.com - this is an eternal ink, meaning it's waterproof, but not 'bulletproof')

Swishmix Nile Ebony

Swisher Midnight Black

 

[James P]

Good advice so far, and I'm learning a lot about chemistry! One minor correction, though. Noodler's makes two black inks at the moment. Black, a/k/a "bulletproof" black; and Polar black. Polar Black is also an "eel" ink, which means it has lubricating properties in addition to being highly freeze-resistant.

 

Well, here's my tally:

 

Polar Black: (This is an eel, but it has a polar bear on the label, and won't freeze before you do)

Eel Black: Also an eel ink, without a polar bear. This stuff will freeze.

"Bulletproof" Black (the usual)

Old Manhattan Black (Available only through fountainpenhospital.com - this is an eternal ink, meaning it's waterproof, but not 'bulletproof')

 

I've been a Noodler's dealer for some time and am unfamiliar with plain ol' eel black. Looking on the Noodler's ink color chart, I don't see it listed as an available color, either. Of course, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and now I'm curious about this eel black you've mentioned. I will be on the phone with the distributor this morning to see if I can learn more. I'll let you know what I find out.

 

And I didn't count "exclusive" or "limited edition" inks that Nathan has done for other entities. My tally included only colors generally available.

Edited November 9, 2007 by James P

[Ink Stained Wretch]

I may try to load half of the pen with pelikan ink and then dip the nib into noddler's black and fill up the remainder of the pen, just to get the best of both inks i.e. permanency and ease of flow.

If the warnings made by Noodler's are correct, you won't get permanency by mixing noodler's in. Noodler's states rather clearly that if you mix their 'bulletproof' inks, it will lose its permanency.

 

Thus saith the Noodler's web site:

One word of caution - if mixed with conventional ink the fraud proof ink WILL REVERT TO CONVENTIONAL INK and all those properties will be lost. It is a delicate formula best left alone if one wants the features to remain constant.

I think that Nathan put that disclaimer out in order to cover the possibility that some inks could react with the Noodler's ink and render it no longer able to bind with cellulose.

 

I mean, he can't guarantee other ink formulations. To take an extreme example, if you mixed Noolder's Black in a 1:1 mixture with concentrated nitric acid you could probably expect that the "bulletproof" properties of the Noodler's Black would be destroyed. So there's no telling what some other companies have put in thier ink that could react with the Noodler's Black and render it no longer permanent.

 

But most inks aren't going to react that way with Noodler's Black. I've mixed a lot of different inks with Noolder's Black and I haven't had a problem with it. In my experiments after it all dries and I dunk the paper in water the non-waterproof ink dissolves away but the Noodler's Black stays. Of course it's not as dark as it would have been had it been only Noodler's Black ink that had made the line in the first place. What's left is what you'd get from diluting the Noodler's Black with distilled water at the same ratio as the other ink that was mixed with it.

 

So go ahead and experiment, you're unlikely to find an ink that will really make Noodler's Black ink totally "revert to conventional ink."

[James P]

Well, I'll be hog-tied! I just called the Noodler's distributor 'cause I was confused about the variety of Noodler's black inks on the market. Seems like I was mistaken: Noodler's does make 3 generally available inks, as Pariah Zero mentioned.

 

They are Polar Black (which is also an eel ink); bulletproof ink (the one we all know) and eel black (which contains lubricants but no anti-freezing agents).

 

Thanks for setting me straight!

 

James

[Paul Leong]

Well, I'll be hog-tied! I just called the Noodler's distributor 'cause I was confused about the variety of Noodler's black inks on the market. Seems like I was mistaken: Noodler's does make 3 generally available inks, as Pariah Zero mentioned.

 

They are Polar Black (which is also an eel ink); bulletproof ink (the one we all know) and eel black (which contains lubricants but no anti-freezing agents).

 

Thanks for setting me straight!

 

James

You can read more about polar and eel inks at

http://www.mikeshea.net/More_on_Noodlers_Ink.html

 

Scroll down the page and you will find the statement that 'polar' is the most lubricated ink made by Noodler's while eel inks have 7% longer dry times on average compared with other inks.

[Johnny Appleseed]

I may try to load half of the pen with pelikan ink and then dip the nib into noddler's black and fill up the remainder of the pen, just to get the best of both inks i.e. permanency and ease of flow.

If the warnings made by Noodler's are correct, you won't get permanency by mixing noodler's in. Noodler's states rather clearly that if you mix their 'bulletproof' inks, it will lose its permanency.

 

Thus saith the Noodler's web site:

One word of caution - if mixed with conventional ink the fraud proof ink WILL REVERT TO CONVENTIONAL INK and all those properties will be lost. It is a delicate formula best left alone if one wants the features to remain constant.

I think that Nathan put that disclaimer out in order to cover the possibility that some inks could react with the Noodler's ink and render it no longer able to bind with cellulose.

 

I mean, he can't guarantee other ink formulations. To take an extreme example, if you mixed Noolder's Black in a 1:1 mixture with concentrated nitric acid you could probably expect that the "bulletproof" properties of the Noodler's Black would be destroyed. So there's no telling what some other companies have put in thier ink that could react with the Noodler's Black and render it no longer permanent.

 

But most inks aren't going to react that way with Noodler's Black. I've mixed a lot of different inks with Noolder's Black and I haven't had a problem with it. In my experiments after it all dries and I dunk the paper in water the non-waterproof ink dissolves away but the Noodler's Black stays. Of course it's not as dark as it would have been had it been only Noodler's Black ink that had made the line in the first place. What's left is what you'd get from diluting the Noodler's Black with distilled water at the same ratio as the other ink that was mixed with it.

 

So go ahead and experiment, you're unlikely to find an ink that will really make Noodler's Black ink totally "revert to conventional ink."

 

 

I aggree with ISW - I have made many mixes with Noodlers bulletproof colors and in all cases the bulletproof colors remain completely waterproof. I have not tried testing them with industrial-strenght bleach, ammonia, intense UV light, etc. to see whether they remain completely "bulletproof".

 

Nathan has so much as said, elsewhere in the forum, that noodlers will remain waterproof when mixed with other inks. His disclaimer is because he cannot guarantee the full "bulletproof" and forge-proof properties of the inks when mixed with other inks, especially over time. Remember that Nathan claims, and guarantees, that his bulletproof color cannot be erased or altered by any process that does not destroy the underlying the paper into pulp. That is a far cry from what most of us need in a waterproof ink.

 

So the experience of many people here at FPN is that a bulletproof ink mixed with most other inks results in a mix in which the original bulletproof ink remains completely waterproof.

 

John

[Paladin]

No, it won't corrode your pens. Use it and don't worry.

 

For those that wonder how an acidic ink won't corrode: Corrosion isn't just a function of acid/base. There are other factors as well.

 

snipped to save scrolling

 

It's also possible to have an ink that's safe for a fountain pen, but will eat aluminum foil.

 

Very informative and interesting post. Thanks.

 

Here's a thought. If the ink is acidic will it eat away the paper? I remember how as a young chemistry student goofing around in class with the mild sulphuric and hydrochloric acid in class. Basically, I would pour the acid on some unsuspecting classmates assignment on say a FRI. Then come MON, the page would disintegrate. BTW it would make holes in pull overs also at the very least change the colour :embarrassed_smile:

 

Also do you know what goes into Pelikan inks? i.e. ingredients, composition etc. Just curious.

 

Many thanks.

[graceaj]

I may try to load half of the pen with pelikan ink and then dip the nib into noddler's black and fill up the remainder of the pen, just to get the best of both inks i.e. permanency and ease of flow.

If the warnings made by Noodler's are correct, you won't get permanency by mixing noodler's in. Noodler's states rather clearly that if you mix their 'bulletproof' inks, it will lose its permanency.

 

Thus saith the Noodler's web site:

One word of caution - if mixed with conventional ink the fraud proof ink WILL REVERT TO CONVENTIONAL INK and all those properties will be lost. It is a delicate formula best left alone if one wants the features to remain constant.

I think that Nathan put that disclaimer out in order to cover the possibility that some inks could react with the Noodler's ink and render it no longer able to bind with cellulose.

 

I mean, he can't guarantee other ink formulations. To take an extreme example, if you mixed Noolder's Black in a 1:1 mixture with concentrated nitric acid you could probably expect that the "bulletproof" properties of the Noodler's Black would be destroyed. So there's no telling what some other companies have put in thier ink that could react with the Noodler's Black and render it no longer permanent.

 

But most inks aren't going to react that way with Noodler's Black. I've mixed a lot of different inks with Noolder's Black and I haven't had a problem with it. In my experiments after it all dries and I dunk the paper in water the non-waterproof ink dissolves away but the Noodler's Black stays. Of course it's not as dark as it would have been had it been only Noodler's Black ink that had made the line in the first place. What's left is what you'd get from diluting the Noodler's Black with distilled water at the same ratio as the other ink that was mixed with it.

 

So go ahead and experiment, you're unlikely to find an ink that will really make Noodler's Black ink totally "revert to conventional ink."

 

Be a little careful of what mixes get you though. I mixed some Pelikan blue-black with a bulletproof Honourable Blue and found a thin layer of 'fuzz' in the container I mixed it.

 

[Titivillus]

If the warnings made by Noodler's are correct, you won't get permanency by mixing noodler's in. Noodler's states rather clearly that if you mix their 'bulletproof' inks, it will lose its permanency.

 

Thus saith the Noodler's web site:

One word of caution - if mixed with conventional ink the fraud proof ink WILL REVERT TO CONVENTIONAL INK and all those properties will be lost. It is a delicate formula best left alone if one wants the features to remain constant.

 

Yes but at the same time I've mixed some Noodler's inks and it doesn't revert to conventional ink but rather it looks like the regular ink washes off but the permanent part of noodler's stays so it might not be totally bulletproof but it is fraud proof!

 

Kurt

 

[RsqVet]

As many have mentioned it may be a moot point with a well constructed pen what the PH of the ink is, however I take a fair bit of joy in using many very cheap (sub 20 dollar) new pens or older pens that I have repaired myself so why risk it.

 

Furthermore while I can understand why 100 years ago one might have to settle for a good ink that happened to have a low or high pH, I don't know why this must continue with modern advancements.

[Deirdre]

Furthermore while I can understand why 100 years ago one might have to settle for a good ink that happened to have a low or high pH, I don't know why this must continue with modern advancements.

See issues relating to Baystate blue (vs. the very strong blue color it has, which is desirable).

 

People will use whatever they feel is best.