Will ammonia kill mold in a fountain pen section?

August 24, 2007

Thanks for all the responses. I will definitely order the specialized product from Tryphon, but I'm curious that so many people on the board seem to be recommending BLEACH in favor of AMMONIA as a quick "around the house" solution. I had always heard that AMMONIA was the chemical of choice for cleaning pens. They both seem like pretty hazardous chemicals to me (and hopefully to molds, fungi, and other evil things). Is BLEACH really more powerful than AMMONIA? Thoughts?

August 24, 2007

Thanks for all the responses. I will definitely order the specialized product from Tryphon, but I'm curious that so many people on the board seem to be recommending BLEACH in favor of AMMONIA as a quick "around the house" solution. I had always heard that AMMONIA was the chemical of choice for cleaning pens. They both seem like pretty hazardous chemicals to me (and hopefully to molds, fungi, and other evil things). Is BLEACH really more powerful than AMMONIA? Thoughts?

I'm no scientist, and did not mean to come off anti-bleach. I happen to swim in a bit of the stuff everyday....and according to beezaur, I'm drinking it as well.

However, household bleach is alkaline and has a pH around 12. The thought of putting household bleach (even in diluted form) in any of my pens (even the cheap ones) does not appeal to me. I often use a 1:10 ammonia solution to clean my pens. So on the off-chance even a trace amount of the bleach remains in the pen -- the reaction of ammonia and bleach is probably not going to be a pleasant experience (in the pen or for me).

I just do not like the idea of chancing multiple cleaners or for any kind of residue to become acidic and thus corrosive. This can sometimes happen, for example, when anything is cleaned with a chlorinated cleaner followed by an acid-based cleaner or sanitizer. Accidentally mixing chlorine bleach with acid- or ammonia-based cleaners can release harmful gases. In small doses, who knows what may happen -- perhaps nothing. But I frankly do not want to find out. Others have used bleach on their pens obviously with no harmful effects. I would rather not. There are other fungicides that are much safer alternatives (like Tryphon's SterilInk).

I did ask my handyman if chlorine bleach kills mold: His response, "Chlorine bleach does not kill mold, it merely bleaches it." I don't know who take seriously anymore...

Edited August 24, 2007 by girlieg33k

August 24, 2007

As a household disinfectant, I would use more bleach,

as ammonia residues leave odors that are likely to confuse

your cat, in a bad way, about where the REAL litter box is.

I combine bleach with UV by letting items rinsed with

50/50 water and bleach solution dry in the sun.

My friend who's a mom and raises rescue puppies says

she uses lots of bleach for disinfectant also.

August 24, 2007

Thanks for all the responses. I will definitely order the specialized product from Tryphon, but I'm curious that so many people on the board seem to be recommending BLEACH in favor of AMMONIA as a quick "around the house" solution. I had always heard that AMMONIA was the chemical of choice for cleaning pens. They both seem like pretty hazardous chemicals to me (and hopefully to molds, fungi, and other evil things). Is BLEACH really more powerful than AMMONIA? Thoughts?
I'm no scientist, and did not mean to come off anti-bleach. I happen to swim in a bit of the stuff everyday....and according to beezaur, I'm drinking it as well.

However, household bleach is alkaline and has a pH around 12. The thought of putting household bleach (even in diluted form) in any of my pens (even the cheap ones) does not appeal to me. I often use a 1:10 ammonia solution to clean my pens. So on the off-chance even a trace amount of the bleach remains in the pen -- the reaction of ammonia and bleach is probably not going to be a pleasant experience (in the pen or for me).

I just do not like the idea of chancing multiple cleaners or for any kind of residue to become acidic and thus corrosive. This can sometimes happen, for example, when anything is cleaned with a chlorinated cleaner followed by an acid-based cleaner or sanitizer. Accidentally mixing chlorine bleach with acid- or ammonia-based cleaners can release harmful gases. In small doses, who knows what may happen -- perhaps nothing. But I frankly do not want to find out. Others have used bleach on their pens obviously with no harmful effects. I would rather not. There are other fungicides that are much safer alternatives (like Tryphon's SterilInk).

I did ask my handyman if chlorine bleach kills mold: His response, "Chlorine bleach does not kill mold, it merely bleaches it." I don't know who take seriously anymore...

I don't know the pH of chlorine bleach. If you say it is 12, that is OK with me. Household ammonia is also basic; its other name is ammonium hydroxide. Whether a chemical is an acid or a base has nothing to do with its corrosiveness. A strong base like sodium hydroxide, when mixed with water and dripped onto a piece of aluminum foil will give you corrosion like crazy.

Ammonia makes a good disinfectant for many organisms (like mold) because it is very reactive (strong base when mixed with water) and is extremely soluble. Most aquatic organisms (single celled and simple multi-celled) excrete nitrogenous waste in the form of ammonia because it diffuses quickly in water and achieves a very low concentration in a short time. Organisms that live on land can't do that; they don't have enough water to dilute the ammonia below a toxic level; they have evolved a way to change their nitrogen waste into urea, which is a lot safer to handle and can be stored in the body for a while. There are a few species of bacteria that live in the soil that love ammonia. Almost all others get a serious case of metabolic disruption from it.

Paddler

August 25, 2007

A strong base like sodium hydroxide, when mixed with water and dripped onto a piece of aluminum foil will give you corrosion like crazy.

I remember some guy back in my college days telling me that if we put balls of aluminum foil in a bottle of ammonia and let the mixture sit for awhile, it would explode. To make the thing explode instantly, all we would need to do was light the bottle with a match or lighter. I did not stick around to find out if this was true -- the fact that he even knew this freaked me out.

But part of the post, quoted above, reminded me of it -- and made me wonder if there could be an explosive reaction between aluminum foil and ammonia. I knew mixing ammonia and bleach was a major no-no, but who would have thought ammonia and aluminum foil? By the way, I'm not into homemade pyrotechnics, and I did not mean to hijack this thread with college day antics.

The original post stated that the section was already being soaked in ammonia -- so my reply was initially to the suggestion that he should then also try bleach. I doubt the proportions he would have been using would release chlorine gas, but still.....it did not sound like a good idea.

I've seen numerous posts here on FPN suggesting the use of the 1:10 ammonia/water solution, so that was always my cleaning agent of choice for pens. I've also seen posts suggesting liquid dish washing soap and even toothpaste for stubborn ink stains on nibs -- but this is the first I'd seen anyone mention bleach. There really is a first time for everything.

For now, if plain water is not doing the trick, I'll continue to use the 1:10 ammonia/water solution for cleaning pens. According to beezaur's post, by doing this, I'm mixing ammonia with traces of bleach anyway (found in the water). The small concentration obviously has not harmed my pens yet. If I ever do find mold on my pen, I would take Richard's advice (link posted above in my original response).

Oh, and I did not mean to pick on you beezaur (regarding your post about bleach). Because of your post, I learned that the bleach in household bleach is different from the one used in the water that we drink and in the swimming pool -- sodium hypochlorite for household uses and calcium hypochlorite for drinking water and swimming pool disinfecting. So, thanks!

August 25, 2007

I'm curious that so many people on the board seem to be recommending BLEACH in favor of AMMONIA as a quick "around the house" solution. I had always heard that AMMONIA was the chemical of choice for cleaning pens. . . .

Bleach is a better disinfectant.

Ammonia is a better cleaner.

edit to add: Don't use them together, and flush with clean or distilled water after each.

Scott

Edited August 25, 2007 by beezaur

August 25, 2007

The bleach concentrations I am advocating are around 1:600 (1 part 6% NaOCl, i.e., household bleach, and 600 parts H2O). While this is waaaaaay higher than what you drink, it still is very dilute. Whatever the pH of the raw (6%) bleach, the pH of the actual solution will depend upon the water you use to mix the solution. I am not talking about long contact times here -- just 5 to 10 minutes or so.

What happens in raw (untreated) drinking water is that you add X amount of bleach and most of it reacts with the dissolved things in the water. That part isn't "bleach" anymore. It has chemically combined with whatever is in your water to other things. Often those other things are then filtered out. The part left over, the "residual," of a few parts per million [edit: usually a lot less] is what keeps your drinking water safe. It prevents growth of bacteria in distribution pipes, and kills chunks of bacteria that slough off of the insides of pipes during high flows, etc.

Generally a low concentration like you find in drinking water pipes is not sufficient to provide a good kill where you have a high concentration of biologics in tight spaces -- like mold in a feed. You need a higher bleach concentration for a good kill there, and you need to freshen the solution every so often. Otherwise the biomass of the mold will use up the bleach.

Scott

Edited August 25, 2007 by beezaur