Paper expert's opinion sought

[Karmachanic]

7 minutes ago, TSherbs said:

Co-relevant to the topic here

 

If one uses TR for swatching? I use it for writing.

 

1 hour ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

what matters most to writers?

 

The subjective experience, including pen, nib, ink and paper.  Quite often in varying combinations, also depending upon mood, ambience, time of day/year.  And so forth.  I find the attempt to objectify what, to me, is a subjective visceral experience, both entertaining and mystifying.  Perhaps a left brain thing beyond my right brain way of thinking?  At the same time there are those  (to me odd people) who use one pen, one ink and one paper ad infinitum.

 

Vive la difference!

 

Anyway.  I'm enjoying the conversation.

[LizEF]

2 hours ago, TSherbs said:

Close your FPN tab. Get outside! 

I did manage to walk away and record my review.  All that's left now is processing images and video.  Thank you for lending motivational support!

[TSherbs]

@KarmachanicYeah, relevant-adjacent

 

The reviewer establishes criteria for judging paper--this was the relevant part to this discussion. I forgot to mention that no fountain pens were used in the review....

[LizEF]

2 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

I am interested in the user experience, not the factors or parameters that affect it.
 

... My perspective, however, is the inverse. I observe it from the end user's perspective.

As previously mentioned, I prefer to avoid overcomplicating matters and merely identify half a dozen characteristics that writers either value or tend to avoid.

 

2 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

Ink displays but 7 principal attributes, and nibs 3 principal ones. Were paper to exhibit a hundred, then I would prefer to distil only the essential few.

Do you see the conflict in what you just did here?

 

In the first reply, you said you want only to consider the end-user experience.  In the second, you say that ink displays 7 attributes.  In the first, you say you want to talk about the user, but then you compare that goal to talking about the ink!

 

My spreadsheet describes the ink.  It does not describe the writer's experience using the ink.  I've been trying in this thread to do for paper what I do with ink - describe those paper attributes that a person might wish to know.  I have not in the slightest attempted to describe the writer's experience using the paper.  And to be honest, I've never tried to do that¹.  I don't even know how to do that.  I think @Claes and @arcfide have on occasion done that to a degree, but only to a degree.

 

¹The exception being to describe my initial reaction to Iroful.  But even there, I talk about the paper's attributes far, far more than my own emotion or sensations.

 

So, the question is, are you really after the user experience, or have you just thought that was what you were after?  I fear we've muddied the water quite a bit, but hopefully this is all still useful.

[LizEF]

2 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

To “glide” would require applying force to overcome a threshold relating to the friction coefficient, so that lateral movement can commence; and only then could one then assess how much reaction force is “felt” by the user as transmitted back up the nib and pen to the user's hand. However, the normal force applied by the user and/or pen's weight pressing into the paper surface will change the friction encountered, especially if it starts to deform the paper surface and causing a larger contact surface area between the nib's tipping and the paper. The degree of lubrication provided by the ink used will also matter. The geometry of the nib tipping, and the material and structure of the tipping (e.g. Sailor's use of tipping material that contain microscopic bubbles/craters on certain nibs) will also affect the friction encountered. So “glide” cannot be an attribute of the paper alone.

I love it when people go all science-y.  And it sort of demonstrates my point - that this isn't a paper attribute one can pursue.  But also demonstrates that this is, after all, what @Tommaso Santojanni is seeking - something that describes the user experience.  What one does with it, I'm not sure...

[LizEF]

2 hours ago, TSherbs said:

From what data did you make these conclusions?  The exchange here with LizEF? (no offense, Liz) I am surprised how quickly you have reached these conclusions, unless perhaps you have been examining this question for longer elsewhere.

Not offended.  He took the attributes that I measure or rate in my ink reviews. As per my previous reply, these are, IMO, attributes of the ink, not of the user experience with the ink.  So now I'm a little uncertain if we're using different labels for the same thing, or searching for something entirely different than what I've been trying to get at, which is: "The paper attribute categories¹ most important to users (based on what I've seen discussed online, as well as my own experience)."

 

¹I say "attribute categories" because the desired attribute value will vary from person to person, but I expect that the categories themselves are pretty commonly ranked: takes ink well, allows ink to dry, color, texture, weight.  We've had up to, I think, 10 categories.  But when people talk about paper, I most often see those 5 things.  And yes, of course, this is entirely my perspective and someone else might come up with different categories.

[LizEF]

36 minutes ago, Karmachanic said:

The subjective experience, including pen, nib, ink and paper.  Quite often in varying combinations, also depending upon mood, ambience, time of day/year.  And so forth.  I find the attempt to objectify what, to me, is a subjective visceral experience, both entertaining and mystifying.  Perhaps a left brain thing beyond my right brain way of thinking?  At the same time there are those  (to me odd people) who use one pen, one ink and one paper ad infinitum.

 

Vive la difference!

 

Anyway.  I'm enjoying the conversation.

  We can all blame @geoduc, who hasn't been here in forever, for getting me addicted to ink samples - bless him forever for that!    And subsequently, I have found that I also love variety in my papers.  The only FP-friendly paper I've tried that I don't like is the white Clairefontaine paper found in their French rule, spiral bound notebooks.  I'll use up what I have, eventually, but won't buy more - nor any other Clairefontaine paper that I suspect is the same.

 

I've never before attempted to describe my emotional or sensory experience with inks, pens, or paper.  I describe my experience in terms of their attributes - "this nib is so smooooooothhhhh" or "look how the color pops on Iroful" or "holy sheening ink, Batman!"  The phrasing may reflect wonder or joy, but the adjectives describe the physical object, not my experience.  I'm just not sure how to describe the experience.

 

Anywho, like you, I'm enjoying this conversation.

[TSherbs]

You have worked very hard here, @LizEF,  to be both precise and clear. You are to be commended. 

[LizEF]

4 minutes ago, TSherbs said:

You have worked very hard here, @LizEF,  to be both precise and clear. You are to be commended. 

Thanks!  This sort of thing appeals to the database application developer in me: categorizing, abstracting, defining relations, normalizing, sorting, etc.  These things are apparently in my bones.  When I created my ink database - the first real coding and database design I did after leaving my job - I was surprised by how much I loved it.  I enjoyed the database application development parts of my job very much, and always knew that, but it took time away from it and then doing it again to show me just how much it was a part of my core identity / nature.  As you might guess, I also enjoy games and puzzles that involve logic and putting things in order.

 

In other words, threads like this are fun for me and satisfy a bone-deep need to organize.   I'm probably getting dopamine highs every time I come here.

 

For those who may not understand: the spreadsheet I share with everyone is not my database - it's not even a database - it's a spreadsheet (insert the disdainful look that every database person has for spreadsheets).  The database is much more complex and complete - and includes code to automate as much of the tedium as possible.

[LizEF]

On 7/22/2025 at 10:24 AM, Tommaso Santojanni said:

But, I wonder, how does the writer experience the interaction nib/paper/ink and what matters to him: the cause or the effect?

So, I'm trying to think in terms of "effect" here...  And the only way I can think to do that is through the sorts of things I've seen people complain or rave about online:

 

Tactile

• Smoothness - the absence of feedback
• Control - the inability to control the pen
• Drag - a sensation that the paper has grabbed the pen and is keeping it from moving freely - I think of this almost as if the ink creates suction between the nib and paper, like sliding a wet suction cup across glass - it'll move, but lots of resistance
• Glide - @Claes's sensation of the nib gliding effortlessly across the paper with just enough friction for control, but not so much that the nib drags...
• Feedback - I've even seen people ask for scratchy paper recommendations - they like that feel - but always, they want the ink to behave well on it
• Smearing - usually the complaint is after the ink is dry - this is largely, but not entirely the fault of the ink
• Eternal dry times (I've never seen someone complain that an ink dries too fast)
• Speed - this relates to some others in this category, but some people complain that they can't write fast; or they celebrate how quickly they can write. The paper is only part of this, though.  Matching pen to paper might be more important than either alone.
• Stiffness / bendability / foldability of the paper - indirectly related to writing; directly related to the paper's feel in the hand, how it separates from other sheets or comes off a pad of paper, etc.

Visual

• Ghosting - I've seen a lot of complaints about ghosting - people who hate it, hate it with a passion; I've seen people express indifference; I don't recall anyone liking ghosting
• Bleed / feathering / fuzziness / spread - no one wants it (but see next)
• Lines being too fine (user coming from absorbent paper to FP-friendly paper)
• Smearing belongs here, too
• Eternal dry times belong here, too
• Watching the ink puddle following the nib - people love this - paper absorbency would impact it
• Ink color - people love Iroful and Cosmo Air (Snow?) papers for making inks pop
• More shading and sheen - people ask what paper shows sheen the most, sometimes they ask the same for shading
• No shading - some people hate shading (barbarians ); not sure I've ever seen anyone ask for paper that stops sheen
• Paper color - I've seen people ask for specific paper colors, ask what inks look good on a certain paper color, or what paper color an ink would look best on; I've seen people comment on the contrast between ink and paper - wanting more or less of it
• While typing the Olfactory comment, I thought of and then forgot one that belongs here. Perhaps one day I'll remember it - probably at 2am while rolling over in bed.

Auditory

• Sound - I can only remember this in relation to the scratchy paper - they like the sound of it as well as the feel
• But @TSherbs has mentioned the sound of writing on paper, and the paper definitely contributes to this sound
• I recall someone complaining about how TR52 crinkles

Olfactory

• I have yet to encounter anyone who had comments on the smell of paper (but I know there are people for whom it would matter - I just don't know whether any of them use fountain pens)

Taste

• I have yet to encounter anyone who had comments on the taste of paper

Emotion

• So far as I can tell, one's emotional reaction to paper will be subsequent to one's sensory reaction to paper, but I have seen evidence that emotions often get involved - usually either for newbies or for people experiencing something they dislike.

These are all the (sorts of) things I can think of that people have said about their paper woes or joys...

[TSherbs]

@LizEF Actually, I was referring to the sound of paper when handled, not when written up on. There is also the tactile experience of handling paper. I enjoy certain aspects of both of these experiences, depending on the nature of the sensory inputs. 

 

PS: I smell books, but not fp paper...

[LizEF]

19 minutes ago, TSherbs said:

@LizEF Actually, I was referring to the sound of paper when handled, not when written up on. There is also the tactile experience of handling paper. I enjoy certain aspects of both of these experiences, depending on the nature of the sensory inputs.

Ah, gotcha.  That, too.

 

20 minutes ago, TSherbs said:

PS: I smell books

Me and you both.  The smell of a new book is intoxicating!

[Claes]

Adding a few items to LizEF's list (above):

 

Auditory: Grab a corner of a sheet between your thumb and index finger. Rattle the sheet. The sound that it emits will indicate the relative amount of sizing, coating (and stiffness); does it just flutter or does it emit a crisp z-i-i-i-i-n-g?

 

Auditory: Take a small piece of paper, crumble it into a ball and chew it. The sound it emits will indicate the relative amount of sizing, coating (and stiffness).

 

 Paper mills normally publish these values:
    Grammage (g/m²)
    Opacity (%)
    Thickness (µm)
    Bulk (thickness/grammage)
    Whiteness (CIE)
    Brightness (ISO 2470/D65  %)
    Roughness (Bendtsen, ml/min)

 

Have fun!
Claes in Lund, Sweden

[TSherbs]

1 hour ago, Claes said:

 

Auditory: Take a small piece of paper, crumble it into a ball and chew it. The sound it emits will indicate the relative amount of sizing, coating (and stiffness).

 

 

 

Dude. 

[Claes]

@TSherbs Actually, I have seen an old intaglio print shop owner perform the chew test, it was somewhere around the end of the 1960s... He could also judge the grammage just by rubbing the sheet between the thumb and forefinger.

[LizEF]

47 minutes ago, Claes said:

@TSherbs Actually, I have seen an old intaglio print shop owner perform the chew test, it was somewhere around the end of the 1960s... He could also judge the grammage just by rubbing the sheet between the thumb and forefinger.

The real  expert.  We're all just making pretend.

[TSherbs]

55 minutes ago, LizEF said:

The real  expert.  We're all just making pretend.

 

word

[A Smug Dill]

3 hours ago, Claes said:

Auditory: Grab a corner of a sheet between your thumb and index finger. Rattle the sheet.

 

If a sheet of ‘O.G.’ Tomoe River 52gsm fell onto the ground and wrinkled (of course) but nobody was around to hear it, did it still make a sound?

[LizEF]

1 hour ago, A Smug Dill said:

If a sheet of ‘O.G.’ Tomoe River 52gsm fell onto the ground and wrinkled (of course) but nobody was around to hear it, did it still make a sound?

[TSherbs]

I'd love to hear Tommaso's response to the idea of the user experience upon the chewing of paper 😁