Paper expert's opinion sought

[Tommaso Santojanni]

8 hours ago, LizEF said:

Yes, I've heard others describe the experience of "drag" with some papers.  Usually it's a really smooth paper plus a really smooth nib, but I suspect there are multiple possible causes to this sensation.  Given that the chemicals in the ink can react to the chemicals on the paper, it's also possible the ink can make a difference.

 

Through our multiple recipients PM conversation on this matter we encountered the difficulty of determining a set of workable descriptive attributes as we identified, if memory serves, some 27 specific unique characteristics, in total.
 

Thanks to Thomas’s observations, we were able to discern that some attributes, as this one (drag or slow paper) could be regarded not as a distinct category, but rather as sub-sets of broader ones. While the term glide, used to denote the wider category, may not have captured "slow paper" perfectly, it nonetheless proved adequate for its inclusion.
 

The final list, distilled from this PM exchange, will be published shortly.

[Tommaso Santojanni]

9 hours ago, LizEF said:

The finer the nib, the farther from the paper you need to keep it.   I tell newbies to practice letting the nib just barely brush the paper enough to make a mark, to think of it as trying to write without letting the nib touch the paper.  Sure, it has to touch the paper, but your goal isn't to press it into the paper, but to keep it as much off the paper as possible.  It can help train the mind and muscles to stop pressing the pen into the paper!  I also tell them that someone standing behind them should be able to slip the pen from their fingers without any real resistance.  If there's resistance, the writer's hand isn't relaxed enough.  It's an art form.

Indeed, I could not agree more. I have recently hired a penmanship tutor for my ten year old daughter, and this was the very first principle introduced: how to hold the pen, and how to allow the nib to meet the paper with the lightest possible touch. She insists that the feather of orgin was not only an instrument but must be considered a symbol of how lightly we must use the pen.

Her tutor insists that the feather, in its original form, was not merely a writing instrument but a symbol, a gentle reminder that the pen is to be held as lightly as bird. It is a lesson I have yet to master, though my daughter appears to have grasped it.

Regrettably, this is something that I struggle very much with myself. I begin well enough, but soon find that I have reverted to pressing too hard without realising it. I must devise a way to remind my hand of the feather touch, perhaps a thread tied round the finger. Often, I am gently rebuked by my daughter: “Papá, you’re writing like a hog, not a bird” ...

[A Smug Dill]

31 minutes ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

I begin well enough, but soon find that I have reverted to pressing too hard without realising it. I must devise a way to remind my hand of the feather touch, perhaps a thread tied round the finger.

 

As always, my preferred approach is to capture “all” the data, and then reviewing it, instead of planning in the first place on cutting the effort in observation and remediation. If one can't become diligent and be (as my therapist puts it) “hyper-vigilant”, but rely on real-time external alarms to prod oneself to make adjustments when unconscious mistakes are made, he isn't really going to internalise the discipline and get better at handwriting, or spelling, or sparring in martial arts, etc.

Try putting a sheet of “carbon paper” (irrespective of the actual mechanism for making pressure-triggered marks) under the sheet on which you're writing… preferably with the marking side facing upwards (so that it is more sensitive, and also doesn't “waste” the next sheet of writing paper in the book/notepad). When the “carbon paper” start making marks because you wrote on the sheet above it with a fountain pen, that's concrete evidence that you're pressing down harder on the pen then you need to (just to get it to put ink down on the paper surface in a controlled manner, i.e. write).

[RedPie]

15 hours ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Neusiedler Japan Post 80g paper

This was my favorite paper. Too bad they don't make it any more. 

[LizEF]

6 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

Her tutor insists that the feather, in its original form, was not merely a writing instrument but a symbol, a gentle reminder that the pen is to be held as lightly as bird. It is a lesson I have yet to master, though my daughter appears to have grasped it.

Regrettably, this is something that I struggle very much with myself. I begin well enough, but soon find that I have reverted to pressing too hard without realising it. I must devise a way to remind my hand of the feather touch, perhaps a thread tied round the finger. Often, I am gently rebuked by my daughter: “Papá, you’re writing like a hog, not a bird” ...

Children are wonderful!  And it's no wonder she's grasped it faster - children are more flexible than adults.  It took me about 6 months to learn to instinctively use a relaxed grip, but since doing reviews, I've learned that I can relax and lighten my hand even more, but doing so consistently is a huge challenge.  Perhaps one day I'll master it - at least I recognize how.

 

6 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Try putting a sheet of “carbon paper” (irrespective of the actual mechanism for making pressure-triggered marks) under the sheet on which you're writing… preferably with the marking side facing upwards (so that it is more sensitive, and also doesn't “waste” the next sheet of writing paper in the book/notepad). When the “carbon paper” start making marks because you wrote on the sheet above it with a fountain pen, that's concrete evidence that you're pressing down harder on the pen then you need to (just to get it to put ink down on the paper surface in a controlled manner, i.e. write).

One of the things I like about this method is that it's harder for the conscious mind to ignore than a method that leaves no record behind - a note you read at the start of your writing session, or a string around your finger tells you something at the start, but your brain quickly sets it aside to focus on the task at hand - writing.  The carbon paper under your writing page gives the same message at the start, but also informs you that it's going to keep a record of what you do, and show it to you when you're done.  This seems to create a more persistent change that's harder for the brain to forget - as it has a future element to it.  I need to remember to include it in my advice - though since I left r/fountainpens, the topic rarely comes up.

[Claes]

@Thomas Ang

>Can I say: I want 65gsm, cream, blank sheets, smooth finish, etc

 

Yes.

 

> 2000 sheets...

 

No. That's far too small an order for a mill to be interested; 2000 sheets - that's less than a 2 minutes run.

 

You would be better off trying to find a paper making hobbyist, a paper artisan. However: they strive for making the sheets artful, often rough, and not especially pen/ink friendly. They usually don't have any smoothing/glossing/calendering machinery and they lack experience in coatings.

 

Have fun!
Claes in Lund, Sweden

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

7 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

It is a lesson I have yet to master, though my daughter appears to have grasped it.

I'm still medium, not light, even though I use the automatic light forefinger up method of grasping a fountain pen. If I used a real light pressure, I'd get no line variation with semi-flex nibs. I know of at least one so unfortunate, very light Hand  pen user on this com. 

 

I have more on this forefinger up, how to do it exactly, and how moving the flat thumb a quarter of an inch moves the balance of the pen. If anyone wants it. 

 

A long time ago, one of the writer's from the writing section Conclin or something like that, came over and showed this method of grasping...not gripping a fountain pen.

I was using the basic Death Grip Classic Triangle with the deadly Kung Fu Thumb Pinch, I'd learned back in vacuum tube TV days. 

This takes minutes to learn to grasp the pen lightly, some three days to make the switch from Death Grip to featherlite. 

Fore finger at 12:00-12:30-13:00 as you want. 

..............................................

That carbon paper trick is great....if you never want to use a semi-flex nib for line variation.

Of course, if you have gotten a light hand, you could learn to add pressure where you want it writing with semi-flex. With superflex; I think it quite a waste not to get any flex in a Wet Noodle.

I

[LizEF]

7 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

Thanks to Thomas’s observations, we were able to discern that some attributes, as this one (drag or slow paper) could be regarded not as a distinct category, but rather as sub-sets of broader ones. While the term glide, used to denote the wider category, may not have captured "slow paper" perfectly, it nonetheless proved adequate for its inclusion.

I agree, other characteristics will cover whether one experiences "drag".

[LizEF]

17 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

If I used a real light pressure, I'd get no line variation with semi-flex nibs. ... Of course, if you have gotten a light hand, you could learn to add pressure where you want it writing with semi-flex.

Yes, flex nibs are a whole different question.  IMO, it easier if you first train yourself to use ridiculously light hand, and then add back the variable pressure required to get line variation.  (But I wouldn't blame a single soul for not wanting to wait that long to enjoy the beauty of said line variation! )

 

20 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

This takes minutes to learn to grasp the pen lightly, some three days to make the switch from Death Grip to featherlite. 

Fore finger at 12:00-12:30-13:00 as you want. 

Yes!!  While I can't seem to force myself to maintain this grip, I have found it's the quickest way to force your hand to relax (which sounds contradictory, but you get my meaning, I'm sure).  Something about this finger positioning automatically causes a lighter grip and less pressure.  When giving advice, I point them to this finger positioning specifically, and tell them in general to experiment both with finger positioning and with how far back from the nib they hold the pen - I find it easier to use a lighter touch if my fingers are farther from the nib.

 

While we're on the subject, I'll add the only other notes I can think of regarding writing pressure: both speed and emotions play into it.  When you're in a hurry / writing quickly, you'll tend to grip the pen more tightly.  When you're feeling intense, especially negative, emotions, you'll grip the pen more tightly.  And as the pros tell us, posture and the writing surface also matter - if you have no space in which to move your arm, if you're not seated at a desk, etc - all those things will impact your ability to write and therefore your grip on the pen.  A few times per year, I'm tempted to purchase a drafting desk (with a glass top, because it would mean I'd never again have to use a light box for tracing), but the prices and space considerations and my aversion to having more "stuff" always stop me...  Still, the idea of that angled writing surface appeals greatly - I suspect long writing sessions would be much more comfortable (though I don't know it would be, which also adds weight to the "don't do it" column).

[Tommaso Santojanni]

3 hours ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

This takes minutes to learn to grasp the pen lightly, some three days to make the switch from Death Grip to featherlite. 

Fore finger at 12:00-12:30-13:00 as you want. 

I would very much like to try this grasp, as I am in desperate need of a solution. I hold the pen with such force that would make Darth Vader proud, never mind the death grip! Might I impose on you to share an image taken from the opposite angle, if at all possible? Please?
 

Besides, I must say, I do love your pen. I am on the lookout for the perfect tortoiseshell to add to my collection, preferably a Großvater 100.

[LizEF]

1 hour ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

I hold the pen with such force that would make Darth Vader proud, never mind the death grip!

 

1 hour ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

Might I impose on you to share an image taken from the opposite angle, if at all possible? Please?

While waiting, if you do a general (not FPN) image search for "spencerian grip", you'll get some old drawings that show various angles and options.  Here's just one example:

 

I recommend experimentation to see what works best for you specifically.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Liz's post shows much more hand motion than modern.

They actually used a business script similar to the later Palmer version; of which I don't see any big difference.

Fancy writing was for at home to show you had had the time and were therefore middle class or more to have learned Spenserian. 

................

An old post of how to hold a fountain pen, and lightly.

 

Italic nibbed pens are held before the big index knuckle and the nib is canted @ 45 degrees, and the drawing of letters is done in a push-pull movement.

................................................

 

Regular pens 'rests' after the big index knuckle at 45 degrees, or 40 degrees at the start of the web of the thumb.....depending on how long and heavy the pen is. If long and heavy, it rests; in the pit of the web of the thumb....at 35 degrees, taking weight off the nib.

Classic tripod the thumb is at 10 O'clock, the forefinger at 2, and the middle finger at 6.

However, because of the 10-2, pressure is often until one spends some 6-9 months learning to hold very lightly, way too much time, leading to the Death Grip with accompanying Deadly Kung Fu Thumb Pinch.

 

Folks are use to plowing the south 40 without the mule with a ball point, so use too much pressure. No pressure is needed, in if the pen is held after the big index knuckle, it floats on a small puddle of ink.

 

If held before the big index knuckle, it has too tiny a puddle and one gouges little grand canyons into the paper. (or one has to buy a fat and blobby Pelikan double ball nib.)

(Italic of course is different.)

 

I use the 'forefinger up', way of grasping a fountain pen, an automatic light grip, which takes three minutes to learn.

Standard or medium-large pens should be posted for better balance, and then they are not 'too small', as some claim who refuse to post a pen so designed.

Many Large and Oversized pens are too clunky posted....

 

Finally, made some pictures of the 'forefinger up' method of grasping a fountain pen. An automatic light grip...............no more Death Grip.....and remember to keep the thumb a flat dam....no Kung Fu Death Pinch....

The Classic Tripod puts pressure down on the pen from the 10&2 positions.

 

With the thumb held flat at 08:30-09:00 there can be no down pressure. The forefinger rests on the top of the pen.

The pen will not somersault out of your hand.

Move the pen from the nail joint to 1/3 inch into the fat of the finger pad. And the pain of at the nail junction is gone.

 

Pens used a '90's springy regular flex Pelikan 400 and a semi-nail 605.

 

It takes three minutes to learn, will take some three days to become real accustomed to it....which is better than the 3 months to a year it takes to lighten a Classic Tripod with it's built in over pressure finger and thumb positions....along with the cocked high pressure Kung Fu Thumb Death Grip.

 

I learned this on the com....having a painful dent at my middle finger joint...that was a bit of nerve damage more than likely from Death Grip ball points; that didn't go away with Death Grip held fountain pens.

 

This shows a flat thumb. Bow of the forefinger good....as you will see one can bend it a bit....but you don't want an 'elbow' bend in the forefinger....in that will cause unneeded pressure.

Showing where the pen should rest on the middle finger pad....away from the nail junction. And a 12:00-12:30 resting forefinger position.

 

Fairly good forefinger up positions. The thumbnail is 1/3 past the forefinger crease....for a higher hold.....a tad too much forefinger bend...but acceptable, in comfort is the main thing...but it is not bent. No mid finger joint poking up in the air like an elbow.

Here, the thumb is higher up the barrel...near the forefinger pad crease.

 

With the thumbnail at the crease of the forefinger joint the pen will rest deeper into your hand, more at a 40 degree angle at the start of the web of your thumb....If the thumbnail is a tad before the forefinger crease the pen will rest higher close to 45 degrees.

If you are more comfortable there with 'that' pen. A pen should rest where it wishes....if heavier or longer a bit deeper in to the web of the thumb.

It's your decision, but by moving just the thumbnail a bit down from the forefinger crease, your pens angle will be higher to right after the index knuckle....if you wish.

Above...flat thumb.

 

A fairly straight forefinger up.....comfort is part....a bit of bow in the forefinger is not bad....as long as it's only a bit.............when you have bent the knuckle that is too much.

Just a slightly wider pen.

•  

•  

[LizEF]

14 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

The final list, distilled from this PM exchange, will be published shortly.

As promised, here is the final list:

1. Glide
   What I feel as the nib moves, whether it slips effortlessly across the surface or meets a degree of pleasant or unpleasant resistance. This affects writing comfort, speed, and flow. Some prefer a soft, smooth sensation; others enjoy a rougher surface that offers tactile and audible feedback when writing.

2. Ink Reaction
   What I see and feel as the paper reacts to the ink flowing onto it: whether it draws the ink quickly, resists it, or encourages too much flow. I sense this in how wet, dry, or controlled the line feels while writing.

3. Line Integrity
   How clearly the line appears as I write, whether it stays sharp or breaks apart, feathers, or spreads beyond the stroke. It tells me whether the paper holds structure or allows the ink to misbehave.

4. Chromatic Rendering
   How beautiful and complex the ink appears as it settles, does the colour show depth, shading, or sheen? I see it come to life (or not) as the words appear beneath my hand.

5. Drying Time
   How long I must wait before touching the ink without smudging it. I notice it in how soon I can turn the page or move my hand without ruining the line. This is particularly important for some (left-handed writers).

6. Bleed & Ghost
   Whether what I’ve written shows through or marks the other side. I notice it when I turn the sheet, whether the reverse is still usable or marred by what has come through.

It's an been an interesting exercise and more interesting discussion!  Thanks to all who participated.  Another such discussion about ink will be forthcoming.

[TSherbs]

What I hear?

 

What I smell?

 

What I taste?

 

😁

[Bo Bo Olson]

The squeak of the nib.

The dieing letter of one drop too less.

Having to print to get shading.

[LizEF]

25 minutes ago, TSherbs said:

What I hear?

 

What I smell?

 

What I taste?

 

😁

  Sorry T, but the sophisticated paper user is listening to classical music on a $20,000 sound system, and would never dream of sniffing or tasting paper.

[LizEF]

8 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

The squeak of the nib.

The dieing letter of one drop too less.

Having to print to get shading.

I believe these are all covered in the existing categories.

 

Regarding the last one: All other variables removed, the "laws of physics" dictate that you will always¹ get more shading from print / block characters, and less shading when writing cursive / script.  This is unavoidable and unchangeable.  But yes, a combo that shades well even when writing in cursive is the ideal.

 

¹Assuming you aren't deliberately rigging the "game" by printing in a way that prevents shading while writing cursive in a way that enhances it.

[Tommaso Santojanni]

10 hours ago, LizEF said:

As promised, here is the final list:

1. Glide
   What I feel as the nib moves, whether it slips effortlessly across the surface or meets a degree of pleasant or unpleasant resistance. This affects writing comfort, speed, and flow. Some prefer a soft, smooth sensation; others enjoy a rougher surface that offers tactile and audible feedback when writing.

2. Ink Reaction
   What I see and feel as the paper reacts to the ink flowing onto it: whether it draws the ink quickly, resists it, or encourages too much flow. I sense this in how wet, dry, or controlled the line feels while writing.

3. Line Integrity
   How clearly the line appears as I write, whether it stays sharp or breaks apart, feathers, or spreads beyond the stroke. It tells me whether the paper holds structure or allows the ink to misbehave.

4. Chromatic Rendering
   How beautiful and complex the ink appears as it settles, does the colour show depth, shading, or sheen? I see it come to life (or not) as the words appear beneath my hand.

5. Drying Time
   How long I must wait before touching the ink without smudging it. I notice it in how soon I can turn the page or move my hand without ruining the line. This is particularly important for some (left-handed writers).

6. Bleed & Ghost
   Whether what I’ve written shows through or marks the other side. I notice it when I turn the sheet, whether the reverse is still usable or marred by what has come through.

It's an been an interesting exercise and more interesting discussion!  Thanks to all who participated.  Another such discussion about ink will be forthcoming.

I would like to express my thanks to most present on this thread, and a few not, who contributed, in private and with such insight, to the effort of identifying a concise set of descriptors that best capture the writer’s perceptual impressions when using paper.

 

To preserve the clarity and integrity of this thread's remit, it was carried out by multiple-recipient private messages, as a few posters here were, alas, desperately seeking relevance by attempting to press the OP into redefining its scope, projecting their own expectations of what the thread ought to have been, rather than engaging with the request as it had, from the outset, been quite clearly and narrowly framed: namely, to discern about half a dozen attributes that might serve to describe, precisely and measurably, the writer’s experience at the point of contact between nib, ink, and paper.

 

I trust the outcome will nonetheless serve the community well and has been adopted for its intended use. I therefore consider the thread closed, for my purpose. My renewed thanks to those who participated constructively.

 

It is to be hoped that the new ink thread, just proposed by @LizEF, shall not suffer similar attempts to distort its intent, and that its stated remit shall be respected, avoiding recourse to moderator intervention for Forum policies retention.

[TSherbs]

10 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

as a few posters here were, alas, desperately seeking relevance

 

When you plead for a proper reading of intentions behind your own actions, you might take better care in accurate understanding of the motivations of others. You entirely misread my purpose as wanting to criticize the OMAS company. 

 

No one's criticism here about your request amounted to more than stating that you were requesting the impossible (other than, perhaps, by writing a kind of fiction). Sure, you get to ask for fiction in a thread. But to disguise subjective experience as something "precise and measurable" is, for some of us, an illogical order. Liz is to be commended for her efforts to robe the former in the language of the latter. But, as you say, you got what you wanted. What "purpose" you think we have put this to is hard to discern. Purchasing decisions? All you stated to me when I asked about purpose was that you found it "fascinating." Not sure what purpose is to be gleaned from this beyond your own specific pleasure in this "fascination." 

 

And alerting moderators to what, exactly? Other members posting that you seem to be confusing your terms in your request? This conversation went on for pages even in your absence. This is kinda what happens around here. Welcome to FPN. You can't control it all.