Paper expert's opinion sought

[LizEF]

58 minutes ago, penboard.de said:

Some papers start feathering when using pressure or extra fine nibs.

Pressure, especially with a finer nib, will cut into the surface sizing, thereby allowing ink access to the paper fibers.  The finer the nib, the lighter your "hand" needs to be to avoid this problem.  If flexing, especially with a modern, relatively stiff nib, you'll need paper that can handle the pressure and "cutting" caused by the tines.  The polish on the inner edge of the tines makes a big difference here - difficult to get just right and avoid baby's bottom.  It's also possible that extending the polish around the outside edge of the nib, beyond the part that usually touches the paper, is important.

 

27 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

and it is obvious in the pictures of the ink in its test, that the line is uneven...lumpy...bumpy line., that is a woolly line. It is not a clean line.

The review I posted today shows a line that is amazingly consistent (in the microscope image) - I can't even remember the last time I saw such solid edges (magnification is 100x - 10x objective, 10x eyepiece).

 

(FWIW, the paper will contribute to this as much as the ink does, and I have suspicions that the nib shape and polish does as well, which suggests that the user's rotation of the nib can also impact it.  Which basically means everything will, including writing speed and pressure.)

[Bo Bo Olson]

1 hour ago, LizEF said:

Pressure, especially with a finer nib, will cut into the surface sizing, (AH HA!!) thereby allowing ink access to the paper fibers.  The finer the nib, the lighter your "hand" needs to be to avoid this problem.  If flexing, especially with a modern, relatively stiff nib, you'll need paper that can handle the pressure and "cutting" caused by the tines.  The polish on the inner edge of the tines makes a big difference here - difficult to get just right and avoid baby's bottom.

Very well explained.

1 hour ago, LizEF said:

It's also possible that extending the polish around the outside edge of the nib, beyond the part that usually touches the paper, is important.

I buy old cheap used pens, so there is often 'iridium' drag, from the pen sitting in the dark of the drawer for a generation or three.  I do rotate the nib quite a bit when smoothing that away.

I definitely don't want to wear a flat spot into the nib by not rotating enough. 

 

I don't care for butter smooth all that much, and am much too lazy to go more than 2-3 minute buff stick smoothing micro-corrosion drag to good and smooth, not the hour or so needed to get butter smooth.

Could be some of my paper is too good for butter smooth. I'm not using CT and Rhoda on everything, but like Oxford Optic, Clairefontaine Velout`, both 90g, and this new Kyome, well sized 70g spiral notebooks.

I do search for affordable higher grammage copy paper that allows shading.

That is much harder than fiver or so years ago when any 90g copy paper shaded. 

[LizEF]

51 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Very well explained.

Thanks!

 

51 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

I definitely don't want to wear a flat spot into the nib by not rotating enough. 

Yes!

 

51 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

I buy old cheap used pens, so there is often 'iridium' drag, from the pen sitting in the dark of the drawer for a generation or three.  I do rotate the nib quite a bit when smoothing that away.

I hadn't thought about it, but I suppose the corrosion might create sharp enough edges or a gritty enough surface to cause a similar problem.

 

52 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

I don't care for butter smooth all that much, and am much too lazy to go more than 2-3 minute buff stick smoothing micro-corrosion drag to good and smooth, not the hour or so needed to get butter smooth.

And it shouldn't be needed to avoid ragged edges to the line - I'm thinking it's more the consistency of the polish (e.g. how large an area it covers), the shape of the nib - e.g. Sailor nibs seem to have a flat spot, as I recall), etc.

 

54 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Could be some of my paper is too good for butter smooth.

Definitely - I've found that a super-smooth nib on hard, super-smooth paper creates its own kind of drag - I'm just not sure of the mechanical cause.  (Right now, my theory is suction, not unlike a suction cup, but that's just a guess.)

 

55 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

I do search for affordable higher grammage copy paper that allows shading.

That is much harder than fiver or so years ago when any 90g copy paper shaded. 

In my experience, Japanese papers excel at showing shading (or, some of them do).    FWIW.

[Bo Bo Olson]

That's where my cheapness comes into play. It's a tad expensive to stick in a printer for the shading.

I do a lot of editing in the western saga I'm scribbling on. 

[LizEF]

2 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

It's a tad expensive to stick in a printer for the shading.

I do a lot of editing in the western saga I'm scribbling on. 

  Yeah, at that point, you need a paper that's capable, if not excellent, and an ink that's exceptional at shading.   And for mark-up, one that will be easy to spot in amongst the printed text.

[penboard.de]

Following up from my previous post, and as we discussed in some PM conversation with Tommaso, I think that the critical 6 characteristics of paper for writing with fountain pens and ink are these:

 

1. Glide (Claes recommended this, though a few took issue with the term) 
What I feel as the nib moves whether it slips effortlessly across the surface or meets a degree of pleasant or unpleasant resistance. Affects writing comfort, speed, and flow.
Some like it soft and smooth  and some like a rough surface so you can feel and hear more when writing. 

2. Ink Reaction
How the paper behaves when ink touches it does it draw the ink quickly, resist it, or encourage too much flow? I sense this in how wet, dry, or controlled the line feels while writing.

3. Line Integrity
How clearly the line appears as I write whether it stays sharp or breaks apart, feathers, or spreads beyond the stroke. It tells me if the paper holds structure or lets the ink misbehave.

4. Chromatic Rendering
How beautiful and complex the ink looks as it settles does the colour show depth, shading, or sheen? I see it come to life (or not) as the words appear beneath my hand.

5. Drying Time
How long I must wait before touching the ink without smudging it. I notice it in how soon I can turn the page or move my hand without ruining the line. Especially important for me as a left handed writer... 
Slow drying ink (be it caused by the ink or the paper) can be a pest. 

6. Bleed & Ghost
Whether what I’ve written shows through or marks the other side. I notice it when I turn the sheet whether the reverse is still usable or spoiled by what’s come through.
 

Edited July 30, 2025 by penboard.de
made an error.

[Thomas Ang]

The bit of fun with papers, I think, is that it doesn't matter what the manufacturer might claim about their paper production, the true test is whether the particular combination of ink+pen+nib one chooses to use brings pleasure or not. And once something as subjective as "pleasure" is brought in, it becomes so much harder to be objective. 

 

For example, my current notebook is a gift from a well-meaning friend, and is an outwardly really nice Katie Leamon notebook: 100gsm paper slightly off-white, 300 pages (so quite a solid-feeling book). And when I write on it the paper texture makes my EFs really quite unenjoyable... Someone who has larger handwriting and likes broad nibs might disagree. 

 

I love old-production Tomoe River but I'm also aware that it isn't for everyone! I have friends who like higher weights of paper, despite the broad favour that paper has found across the fountain pen community. Myself, it's the audible crinkle that I find really charming, almost more than the other properties that people like about it.

[TSherbs]

2 hours ago, Thomas Ang said:

.... Myself, it's the audible crinkle that I find really charming, almost more than the other properties that people like about it.

 

That makes two of us.

[LizEF]

5 hours ago, Thomas Ang said:

And when I write on it the paper texture makes my EFs really quite unenjoyable...

Yes, EFs really want a smooth paper!  For newbies wondering why their EF nib feels so scratchy, I've sometimes used a "road with potholes" analogy.  Your EF nib is a skateboard, and a broad nib is a monster truck.  One will fall in the "potholes" of the paper, the other will roll right over them without even noticing they're there.

 

5 hours ago, Thomas Ang said:

The bit of fun with papers, I think, is that it doesn't matter what the manufacturer might claim about their paper production, the true test is whether the particular combination of ink+pen+nib one chooses to use brings pleasure or not. And once something as subjective as "pleasure" is brought in, it becomes so much harder to be objective. 

Paper is definitely a subjective preference.  A paper can have all the required technical specs to be compatible with fountain pen ink and nibs, show all the desired properties, and yet still not match the preferences of the user.  Just as we're currently in an ink heyday, I hope that we keep getting more papers and that many are successful (it seems that it's harder to be successful in the paper world than the ink world - cost of production, I'm sure).

[LizEF]

On 7/29/2025 at 11:57 PM, penboard.de said:

Following up from my previous post, and as we discussed in some PM conversation with Tommaso, I think that the critical 6 characteristics of paper for writing with fountain pens and ink are these...

It's a good c-level list.  Once you specify any preferences within each category/characteristic, and perhaps prioritize them, a buyer or paper designer can go to work and find the paper that most closely matches said preferences.

[tommym]

1 hour ago, LizEF said:

It's a good c-level list.  Once you specify any preferences within each category/characteristic, and perhaps prioritize them, a buyer or paper designer can go to work and find the paper that most closely matches said preferences.

 

The bummer is when the ink or paper manufacturer changes the formula or discontinues your favorite combination of ink and paper. I've had that happen to me on a couple of occasions. Sometimes there are only second-best solutions. 

 

Tommy

[LizEF]

1 hour ago, tommym said:

The bummer is when the ink or paper manufacturer changes the formula or discontinues your favorite combination of ink and paper. I've had that happen to me on a couple of occasions. Sometimes there are only second-best solutions.

Indeed.  Nothing we can do about that except look for alternatives.  I think alternative inks are easier to find than alternative papers.  This is one reason I have embraced variety!  I started out wanting one specific color of ink.  A kind soul hereon sent me ~20 ink samples, and I was shocked by what colors I loved, and quickly embraced ink and paper samples and chose to enjoy the variety rather than fixate on a single color.  I still do it from time to time, but in search of my fixation, I have found something better in all but one case!

[tommym]

34 minutes ago, LizEF said:

Indeed.  Nothing we can do about that except look for alternatives.  I think alternative inks are easier to find than alternative papers.  This is one reason I have embraced variety!  I started out wanting one specific color of ink.  A kind soul hereon sent me ~20 ink samples, and I was shocked by what colors I loved, and quickly embraced ink and paper samples and chose to enjoy the variety rather than fixate on a single color.  I still do it from time to time, but in search of my fixation, I have found something better in all but one case!

 

Yes, I even went so far as to have a nibmeister grind and tweak my favorite Montblanc EF nib for my favorite dry ink and my favorite paper. That worked well for about 8+ years while the ink was available. Not wanting to get stuck in that cycle again, I transitioned from Montblanc to pens with easily swappable nibs and feeds.

 

Tommy 

[LizEF]

28 minutes ago, tommym said:

Yes, I even went so far as to have a nibmeister grind and tweak my favorite Montblanc EF nib for my favorite dry ink and my favorite paper. That worked well for about 8+ years while the ink was available. Not wanting to get stuck in that cycle again, I transitioned from Montblanc to pens with easily swappable nibs and feeds.

 

Tommy 

[Thomas Ang]

On 7/30/2025 at 6:57 AM, penboard.de said:

1. Glide (Claes recommended this, though a few took issue with the term) 
What I feel as the nib moves whether it slips effortlessly across the surface or meets a degree of pleasant or unpleasant resistance. Affects writing comfort, speed, and flow.
Some like it soft and smooth  and some like a rough surface so you can feel and hear more when writing.
 

 

4 hours ago, LizEF said:

Yes, EFs really want a smooth paper!

@penboard.de's list is far deeper than I've broken down my experiences with paper! It definitely made me think about one type of paper that's been bugging me recently: there's something about Tomoe River Sanzen that really messes with EF nibs even though it's smooth... I've been describing it to others as a "slow" paper. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well but I find that my finer nibs drag on it in a slightly squidgy way. It's definitely a sort of resistance that slows down my writing speed.

 

The rest of the list is so detailed. Are there really manufacturers out there that will make you a paper stock to spec? Can I say: I want 65gsm, cream, blank sheets, smooth finish, etc... and get maybe 2000 sheets to use for the rest of my life? 🤔

Edited July 31, 2025 by Thomas Ang

[Bo Bo Olson]

4 hours ago, LizEF said:

Yes, EFs really want a smooth paper!  For newbies wondering why their EF nib feels so scratchy, I've sometimes used a "road with potholes" analogy.  Your EF nib is a skateboard, and a broad nib is a monster truck.  One will fall in the "potholes" of the paper, the other will roll right over them without even noticing they're there.

This explains much. I came in with my ancient bought in 1970-71, for blue stamped silver money, P-75 in M, the inherited German pen was M, so I went wide, and only had F's for placeholders...that in most cases never got replaced. 

Many noobies came in wanting EF, EEF (spiderwebs), or even narrower needles (baby spiderwebs). Of course, they needed as wet and vivid an ink as they could get. These to me were boring monotone inks.

To them, the inks I chased for shading were wishy-washy or pastel, in the ink had to be light enough to show both a lighter and darker tone. 

 

Now I can understand why so many had/have woolly lines in their ink reviews that they don't mention, in there was no way they could know better, plowing up their paper with super skinny nibs, was normal. 

[Bo Bo Olson]

18 minutes ago, Thomas Ang said:

Can I say: I want 65gsm, cream, blank sheets, smooth finish, etc... and get maybe 2000 sheets to use for the rest of my life? 🤔

Why limit your self, and 2,000 sheets is only four 500 sheet reams of paper. 

 

I really lucked out, someone had inherited four reams of German Neusiedler Japan Post 80g paper last year that I had read about long, long ago. A shading paper, so I bought the four reams (cheap) and ....I only have one unopened ream of it left....  and half a ream in the printer paper section of a drawer. Better papers are kept in front of that section.

It goes into the printer, and the paper shades when I edit. 

 

I often chase heavy paper. I need to get some 'light' 100g G.Lalo Verge de France laid paper, I have it in 160g.

I have hammerschalg...hammered paper, marbled, which surprised me so nicely. Classically rough, Linen effect, and laid. The laid and linen effect do need M or wider nibs. 

I have some 40 papers (10 or 12 Southworth) ....and there are at least 40 good papers I don't have.

I really got to start using those papers more.

 

[LizEF]

33 minutes ago, Thomas Ang said:

@penboard.de's list is far deeper than I've broken down my experiences with paper!

  Like you, I haven't thought about paper in this much detail.  And I think about it from an objective point of view - what are its measurable attributes / observable features.  I like what I like and dislike what I dislike, but I don't notice things like the difference between the front and back of the sheet until something forces me to.

 

Really, it took a lot of time to prepare for ink reviews, and then actually doing them (with the same nib and paper) before I really learned to distinguish ink attributes.  I suspect the same is true of paper - remove all other variables and pay serious attention, and then after extended use, you'll know something.  I think paper may be more difficult, though, depending on what you want to know.  For some things, you'll need multiple inks and multiple nibs.  But I think the first task would be to train yourself to discern differences in paper, in which case, one nib and one ink would be the place to start.

 

If I weren't already reviewing inks (and have enough to keep me reviewing until January 2028!!), I'd be tempted to try reviewing papers.

 

42 minutes ago, Thomas Ang said:

It definitely made me think about one type of paper that's been bugging me recently: there's something about Tomoe River Sanzen that really messes with EF nibs even though it's smooth... I've been describing it to others as a "slow" paper. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well but I find that my finer nibs drag on it in a slightly squidgy way. It's definitely a sort of resistance that slows down my writing speed.

Yes, I've heard others describe the experience of "drag" with some papers.  Usually it's a really smooth paper plus a really smooth nib, but I suspect there are multiple possible causes to this sensation.  Given that the chemicals in the ink can react to the chemicals on the paper, it's also possible the ink can make a difference.

 

34 minutes ago, Thomas Ang said:

Are there really manufacturers out there that will make you a paper stock to spec? Can I say: I want 65gsm, cream, blank sheets, smooth finish, etc... and get maybe 2000 sheets to use for the rest of my life? 🤔

As to manufacturers making paper to spec?  Not that I know of, but then, I'll bet Bill Gates or Elon Musk could have it done if they wanted.

[LizEF]

29 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

plowing up their paper with super skinny nibs

The finer the nib, the farther from the paper you need to keep it.   I tell newbies to practice letting the nib just barely brush the paper enough to make a mark, to think of it as trying to write without letting the nib touch the paper.  Sure, it has to touch the paper, but your goal isn't to press it into the paper, but to keep it as much off the paper as possible.  It can help train the mind and muscles to stop pressing the pen into the paper!  I also tell them that someone standing behind them should be able to slip the pen from their fingers without any real resistance.  If there's resistance, the writer's hand isn't relaxed enough.  It's an art form.

 

8 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Why limit your self, and 2,000 sheets is only four 500 sheet reams of paper. 

  I agree.  I really, really wish I'd purchased a pallet (320 reams) of HP 24lb premium laser printer paper back in the day when it was excellent.  Now it's just very good.   I could have sold it for twice the cost (and kept have the reams).  Oh well.  I now have 15 reams of the new stuff and am pondering more before they change it again.

[tommym]

I tested my retired Montblanc EF nib, which was reground to a Western EEF by Mike Masuyama, on Tomoe River Sanzen 52g when it was released. The writing experience for me was similar to the original Tomoegawa 52g; no shading. 

 

The lightest paper I used for work-related projects was rolls of 8 lb (29/30g???) tracing paper, so in that respect, 52g was heavier and easier for me to handle with a Western EEF nib.

 

Tommy