Two inks, two uses ...

[Tommaso Santojanni]

Everyone was very helpful and I thought it only fitting to share my decision.

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A. Regarding the permanent brown-red ink I had been seeking, I have decided, provisionally, on Sailor Kujukuri Coast Hamanasu. This choice is subject to the swatch indeed proving a very close match to Diamine Writer’s Blood, and being permanent. It is currently available on Amazon: I can have it delivered to my address in Japan, and from there to me in England. Should it not be permanent or a close match, I have listed four alternatives which I find equally agreeable:

 

1. Noodler's House Divided
2. Birmingham Swift - Whiskey Rebellion Bourbon
3. Noodler's #41 Brown
4. L'Artisan Pastellier Callifolio - Sepia

The following three could be of interest only if the previous 4 were also unavailable.
5. Birmingham Swift - Projector Film
6. De Artamentis Document Urbana Sienna 

7. De Atramentis Document - Sepia Brown

 

---------
B. Regarding the deepest black, anyone of these except Chuo Kuro (pigment) would be perfect.
.




I would appreciate your help to understand if any of these brown or black inks contain pigment.

@LizEF is Sailor Kujukuri Coast Hamanasu permanent? You know this ink...

Thank you for all the useful information and help.

Tommaso

[LizEF]

3 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

What a helpful post, thank you.

You're most welcome!

 

3 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

3. I had no idea that you posted videos, interesting.

My reviews are also posted here.  And in all of the more recent reviews, at the bottom, you can find a link to my ink spreadsheet which lists the properties of the inks and links to their reviews.

 

3 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

4. These are pigment-based, if I’m not mistaken? In that case, they would not suit my purposes, correct?

Yes, they are nano-pigment.  I would go by what @Mercian says regarding vintage pens, but if you're going to use a (modern?) cartridge/converter pen that seals well and you want a permanent ink, then these would fit the bill, IMO.

 

3 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

(not cleaned, but empty)

<cringe>

 

3 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

Perhaps, if all were properly inspected and serviced, they might perform even better?

Perhaps.  Impossible to know without trying one out.  But generally, if the ink flows well and the writing experience is smooth (given the nib size), then that's a good indicator they're working well.

 

3 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

> if you believe that adopting the habit of merely filling the pen with water in a sink, a few times, before refilling it could help, then I would adopt this habit as it would only add a minute. I do not mean properly cleaning, merely rinsing.

If you're not changing which ink goes into the pen, this is proper cleaning!   And it doesn't even have to happen between every refill - once every few months, any time the ink doesn't want to flow, and before discontinuing use (e.g. switching pens and you intend to leave this one empty - in which case, repeat until the water comes out clear).

 

3 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

> You seem to have no difficulty with the method that I envisaged:  "Further FWIW, Seiboku is permanently in a Platinum Prefounte, F in a syringe-refilled cartridge.  It's rarely used (only when I write letters - it's the envelope addressing pen)”

None at all - with those pens.  Those specific pens seal ridiculously well.  Platinum "guarantee" that their lower end pens with this capping mechanism can go up to a year without use and still write (their higher end pens with the capping mechanism they say will go 2 years).  The TWSBI Eco has o-rings and a screw cap that keeps everything sealed well.  Both are perfect for rare use.

[LizEF]

3 hours ago, Lithium466 said:

I think @InesF answered this one by saying that the binder of pigmented inks will/might never solubilise once dry on some surfaces, while you can always remove precipitated iron if you use the right products and enough time...it's possible I didn't fully understand!

I have the same assumption, and the same possibility - she mentioned the binders, but without a comparable statement regarding iron gall, and staining (?) or more permanent dyes, it's all assumptions.

 

3 hours ago, Lithium466 said:

That said, and off topic, the IG ink "ate" the partial rhodium plating of my Platinum nib

  I'm sorry to hear that.  How frustrating.  One wouldn't think inks would "eat" metal (even plating), but hopefully we can all learn from each other.  It seems plating is particularly vulnerable (and yet, it's commonly used on gold nibs to make them silver-colored).

[LizEF]

2 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

It is particularly helpful to learn that the 400NN may be used without distress in combination with iron gall and pigmented inks. I was informed of the opposite being true. I was especially struck by your remark regarding the 400NN, as a business associate advised me precisely the opposite, not to use Platinum Chou Kuro in that pen, which led me to discontinue its use and to this thread. I would be curious to know whether there is a broader consensus on 400NN with Platinum Chou Kuro or whether views remain divided.

Platinum "require" (not that they're going to send armed men to force you) Chou Kuro be cleaned from the pen only with distilled water.  Some people dismiss this, but various videos demonstrate that failure to do so will cause problems for anyone whose water has minerals in it (which is nearly everyone).  The ink will bind to the minerals in the water and form clumps.  Those clumps will be too big to pass through your feed.  Flow problems will follow.  A pro might, maybe, possibly be able to get it out of your pen, but why bother when distilled water is cheap?

 

Other than this, and whatever chemical impact might happen between the pen and ink (I yield to @Mercian on this - I have no experience or knowledge of this pen), I see no "technical" problem.

 

2 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

The white vinegar comment was also interesting. I had assumed that any acidic solution ought to be avoided, so your comment challenged my presumption. In a constructive way, I will add, as I will now be interested to research further.

It turns out that pure vitamin C (ascorbic acid), which one can buy in powder form and then dissolve in distilled water, is a better (more effective at removing iron gall ink) and safer alternative (for the metals in the pen).  Details on how to mix up a solution can be found in this pdf: https://irongallink.org/images/file/pdf 2_preparation of ascorbic acid_ok.pdf (for reference, here's the stuff I bought (on Amazon) and will be trying as soon as one of these Tintenlabor iron galls leaves a film behind)

 

2 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

I seem unable to locate Sailor Kujukuri Coast Hamanasu on the inkswatch website. You mentioned that it is permanent; correct?

No, it is not permanent.  And correct, it's not on InkSwatch - I only had some to review because @A Smug Dill was kind enough to send me it and many other samples.  I'm not sure how he got it, but I assume he got it direct from Japan.  I think it's a shop exclusive, but don't ask me the shop.   Presumably one in the region of this Kujukuri Coast.

[A Smug Dill]

6 minutes ago, LizEF said:

I'm not sure how he got it, but I assume he got it direct from Japan.  I think it's a shop exclusive, but don't ask me the shop.

 

I got that from the Rakuten seller YouStyle on Rakuten Global Market (which stopped operating years ago as a website). The ‘store’ still exists on Rakuten Ichiba, but I don't think those inks were available or listed at all in recent years. It did seem to be a ‘store’ exclusive, although I remember seeing them on ⑴ eBay, although the seller there could have been the same mob running YouStyle but just using a different name, and ⑵ listed on a Chinese marketplace platform, at rather discounted prices, by a Hong Kong-based store (with bricks-and-mortar presence there) that wouldn't ship overseas at all.

[A Smug Dill]

23 minutes ago, LizEF said:

No, it is not permanent.

 

I concur. 

 

[LizEF]

3 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

L'Artisan Pastellier Callifolio - Sepia

Oh my.  That's gorgeous.  And, as always, @namrehsnoom makes it even more so:

Not totally waterproof, but good resistance.

 

3 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

1. Noodler's House Divided
2. Birmingham Swift - Whiskey Rebellion Bourbon
3. Noodler's #41 Brown
4. L'Artisan Pastellier Callifolio - Sepia

The following three could be of interest only if the previous 4 were also unavailable.
5. Birmingham Swift - Projector Film
6. De Artamentis Document Urbana Sienna 

7. De Atramentis Document - Sepia Brown

1. Was a limited edition, I believe.  It doesn't appear to be for sale from the usual sources, though perhaps some shop may still have some. (see #3 below)

2. I couldn't find on Birmingham's website.

3. Lovely.  Bulletproof.  Noodler's claim their inks aren't pigmented, but the ones I've reviewed (especially once I started doing slides and looking at them under the microscope) sure look and act pigmented.  Personally, I think they're pigmented, along with other stuff that aids in their permanence.  They are usually highly concentrated and can withstand some dilution (with distilled water, in a sample vial - don't dilute large volumes lest you also dilute the biocide).  Dilution can make the ink behave better, if it has behavior problems like bleed, spread, feathering; or if it's too wet-flowing.

4. see above

5. Nice.  Looks like it's still current, but out of stock.  No idea on water resistance.

6 & 7: De Atramentis inks tend to be very wet.  Document inks are solid - no need to worry about water washing those away!    (They are pigmented.)

 

3 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

B. Regarding the deepest black, anyone of these except Chuo Kuro (pigment) would be perfect.

If you're wanting black-black, from my experience, I would choose De Atramentis Document Black or Noodler's Black (but this would need a wet pen to be blackest black).  Both of these have very, very long dry times on Rhodia.  (Chou Kuro dried in 9 seconds from my nib in review.)

 

BETTER: Montblanc Permanent Black is likely the safest for your vintage pens!  I don't know how black it is as I've never reviewed it.  Nor do I know the dry time.  But if you want to use it in a vintage pen, this is the obvious choice.

 

Final thought: Bottles of pigmented inks should be shaken before filling your pen.  Iron gall must not be shaken up before filling your pen (if any oxidation has produced solids, they'll settle to the bottom of the bottle - you don't want these in your pen).  Dye - it can go either way - doesn't hurt to shake it up, only requires it if the ink is over-stuffed with ingredients that won't stay dissolved / in suspension.

[LizEF]

11 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

I got that from the Rakuten seller YouStyle on Rakuten Global Market (which stopped operating years ago as a website). The ‘store’ still exists on Rakuten Ichiba, but I don't think those inks were available or listed at all in recent years. It did seem to be a ‘store’ exclusive, although I remember seeing them on ⑴ eBay, although the seller there could have been the same mob running YouStyle but just using a different name, and ⑵ listed on a Chinese marketplace platform, at rather discounted prices, by a Hong Kong-based store (with bricks-and-mortar presence there) that wouldn't ship overseas at all.

Thank you!  And for your water-test images.

[LizEF]

2 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

I would appreciate your help to understand if any of these brown or black inks contain pigment.

Document inks are pigmented. I already commented on Noodler's permanent inks. I imagine MB Permanent Black is pigmented (but also the best waterproof choice for vintage pens).  I would not have thought L'Artisan Pastellier Callifolio Sepia to be pigmented, and despite the description in the review I linked, these are not advertised as waterproof.  Check out the description at Sakura.  I think this ink would be very safe for your pens, based on that.

[Black16]

18 hours ago, LizEF said:

FYI, cheap and crappy paper often aids water-resistance.  The ink soaks into the paper fibers and tends to hold on better when the water arrives.  With FP-friendly paper (like Rhodia), the ink often dries atop the paper (or the sizing on the paper's surface) and thus water is better-able to wash it away.   Therefore, if concerned about envelopes, sacrifice one to testing the water resistance of ordinary inks on said envelope - write a line with all candidates and give it a shower, or bath, or whatever.  If the envelope allows the ink into the fibers, it may well be that a non-permanent ink will serve just fine.

Yeah I know but I don't think most of envelopes are made of high quality paper, or are they? Certainly not this crappy but not Rhodia level, just a guess.

[LizEF]

44 minutes ago, Black16 said:

Yeah I know but I don't think most of envelopes are made of high quality paper, or are they?

No, you're exactly right - I've never found an envelope that had paper sized like FP-friendly paper.  Thus, many otherwise non-permanent inks would become sufficiently water-resistant on an envelope.

[yazeh]

@LizEF I soaked a Lamy Safari and a Pilot Elite in Ascorbic acid solution for two days with regular runs in the pen jacuzzi. I removed the  feed of Safari, as there was still dye stuck in the feed. I passed a Qtip and it was still black. I wonder if @InesF EDTA powder is better ot not. I'm now testing Essri and Diamine Registrars and curious about the cleaning. But got with a wet flex nib, the ink turns into a shiny dark black, much like Klaw. 😀😸

[yazeh]

2 hours ago, LizEF said:

No, you're exactly right - I've never found an envelope that had paper sized like FP-friendly paper.  Thus, many otherwise non-permanent inks would become sufficiently water-resistant on an envelope.

If I use a water-loving ink, I just run a white candle on the paper to make it waterproof. 

[LizEF]

39 minutes ago, yazeh said:

@LizEF I soaked a Lamy Safari and a Pilot Elite in Ascorbic acid solution for two days with regular runs in the pen jacuzzi. I removed the  feed of Safari, as there was still dye stuck in the feed. I passed a Qtip and it was still black. I wonder if @InesF EDTA powder is better ot not. I'm now testing Essri and Diamine Registrars and curious about the cleaning. But got with a wet flex nib, the ink turns into a shiny dark black, much like Klaw. 😀😸

Interesting.  I wonder if the powder comes in different strengths, or if that website just exaggerates the effectiveness of ascorbic acid or what...  I guess time and more experiments will tell.

[knarflj]

1 hour ago, yazeh said:

If I use a water living ink, I just run a white candle on the paper, to make it waterproof. 

 

Just what I was going to suggest.  I often address envelopes with whatever ink happens to be in the pen, and rub the stub of a white candle over the writing to protect from random raindrops.  

[Mercian]

6 hours ago, Tommaso Santojanni said:

Your salutation and flag at the bottom suggests that you may be Scottish... At school, in Elgin, we used to say that England only exists to remind Scotland what might have been, had it settled only for an Empire, instead of law, reason, and proper vowels.

 

I'm afraid that I am entirely English 

I did steal my salutation from my Caledonian cousins (I am a great fan of their 'Water of Life'), but the saltire in my signature is not the Scottish flag...

The Scottish saltire is a white St. Andrew cross on a blue field.
The flag in my signature has a yellow cross on a blue field.
This is the flag that, in the 'early modern' period, was attributed to the Kingdom of Mercia.

 

Spoiler

Mercia was one of the pre-Norman-Conquest 'Seven Kingdoms' of the Angles and Saxons in what is nowadays called 'England'.
Mercia was in the middle of the Anglo-Saxon possessions on our island.
The name 'Mercia' is derived from the word for 'borders' (as is the name of the 'Marcher Lords' of mediæval England).
It had borders with the Welsh lands, and also the Northumbrians, and later on with the lands that the 'Danish' vikings subsequently conquered.
It was the most-powerful of the Seven Kingdoms for a long period, and its territory even included the area around London for a good while.

 

Mercia existed as a separate sovereign polity between the 6th century and the 9th century. It was eventually taken over by the Kingdom of Wessex, like all the other 'English' lands, after a series of civil wars (and the extensive 'Danish' occupation, obvs).

The flag had become attributed to it by the 13th century, but Wikipedia says that it may have been in-use in the time of King Offa (famous for ordering the construction of the eponymous dyke on the border with the Welsh).

 

Mercia was centred on the 'Midlands' of England, which is where I live, and it is the root of my username on here.

[Tommaso Santojanni]

I am overwhelmed by the information and shall need a little time to digest it all before replying — but thank you to everyone!

 

[Mercian]

40 minutes ago, LizEF said:

I wonder if the powder comes in different strengths, or if that website just exaggerates the effectiveness of ascorbic acid or what... 

 

Former member @pharmacist once said on here that ascorbic acid is the best 'chelating agent' for the iron salts that are involved in iron-gall ink.

 

But of course inks contain other ingredients too, and it may be that other solvents are better at removing those than ascorbic acid is.

[Tommaso Santojanni]

 

Replying to @Mercian requires very little digestion, so I shall do that now, before replying to the more technical posts. I am still rather challenged on this platform and unable to properly quote every passage separately ...
 

7 minutes ago, Mercian said:

 

I'm afraid that I am entirely English 

I did steal my salutation from my Caledonian cousins (I am a great fan of their 'Water of Life'), but the saltire in my signature is not the Scottish flag...

The Scottish saltire is a white St. Andrew cross on a blue field.
The flag in my signature has a yellow cross on a blue field.
This is the flag that, in the 'early modern' period, was attributed to the Kingdom of Mercia.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Mercia was one of the pre-Norman-Conquest 'Seven Kingdoms' of the Angles and Saxons in what is nowadays called 'England'.
Mercia was in the middle of the Anglo-Saxon possessions on our island.
The name 'Mercia' is derived from the word for 'borders' (as is the name of the 'Marcher Lords' of mediæval England).
It had borders with the Welsh lands, and also the Northumbrians, and later on with the lands that the 'Danish' vikings subsequently conquered.
It was the most-powerful of the Seven Kingdoms for a long period, and its territory even included the area around London for a good while.

 

Mercia existed as a separate sovereign polity between the 6th century and the 9th century. It was eventually taken over by the Kingdom of Wessex, like all the other 'English' lands, after a series of civil wars (and the extensive 'Danish' occupation, obvs).

The flag had become attributed to it by the 13th century, but Wikipedia says that it may have been in-use in the time of King Offa (famous for ordering the construction of the eponymous dyke on the border with the Welsh).

 

Mercia was centred on the 'Midlands' of England, which is where I live, and it is the root of my username on here.

[Mercian]

On 6/16/2025 at 5:57 PM, Tommaso Santojanni said:

I am overwhelmed by the information and shall need a little time to digest it all before replying — but thank you to everyone!

 

 

One thing that I forgot to mention before:

Noodler's Black, as well as being very water-resistant and light-resistant, and working very well on cheapo paper, is one of the inks that is often mentioned as being one the of the 'blackest blacks'.

It is e.g. the blackest-looking black that I have ever used.

 

I believe that Chou Kuro may be 'even more blacker' but, like LizEF said, it reacts nastily with any water that isn't de-ionised.

 

For a simple dye-based black ink that is very black from finer nibs, is readily available, and is not very expensive, you might have a look at Lamy Black.

E.g. here ↓ is LizEF's review of it...

I also heartily endorse Lamy's T52 bottles, with their dimpled bottoms and their included roll of blotting paper to help to clean up one's nib after filling.

 

Slàinte,
M.