Writing with the nib at an angle other than 45 degrees?

[PhiloPlume]

Hi,

 

I think I am missing out on techniques I can use when writing with a fountain pen.  I understand writing with the nib at 45 degrees when using an italic nib for italic writing (and 55 for Copperplate, 52 for Spencerian - but that is just the slant.  The nib changes angles for different parts of a letter, and for flourishing).  I have tried inverse writing with the pen and nib upside down, but that doesn't work very well as it doesn't take long for the ink to run out.  The nib does write thinner for a few seconds.

 

Are there various techniques on using different pen and nib angles for different circumstances.  I am not sure I am making myself totally clear.  But maybe I don't totally know how to write with a fountain pen? 🙂

 

[dms525]

16 minutes ago, PhiloPlume said:

Hi,

 

I think I am missing out on techniques I can use when writing with a fountain pen.  I understand writing with the nib at 45 degrees when using an italic nib for italic writing (and 55 for Copperplate, 52 for Spencerian - but that is just the slant.  The nib changes angles for different parts of a letter, and for flourishing).  I have tried inverse writing with the pen and nib upside down, but that doesn't work very well as it doesn't take long for the ink to run out.  The nib does write thinner for a few seconds.

 

Are there various techniques on using different pen and nib angles for different circumstances.  I am not sure I am making myself totally clear.  But maybe I don't totally know how to write with a fountain pen? 🙂

 

 

I think you are confusing nib angle, as in 45º for italic minuscules, with letter slant, as in 55º for copperplate. 

 

Nib angle is different for different scripts that use "italic" nibs. In fact, italic majuscules are written with a flatter nib angle than minuscules. Any good calligraphy book that provides instructions for multiple scripts will specify the proper nib angle for each.

 

Beyond that, some scripts utilize "nib manipulation." That means the nib angle changes for different parts of the letters. This is at least an "intermediate" technique, not for beginners. The most extreme example is probably "Bone Script," which Jaki Svaren designed expressly to teach nib manipulation. Today, Carol Dubosch is probably the leading practitioner of Bone Script. Search for her postings on Instagram. However, this technique is very old. The production of Roman monumental inscriptions utilized a brush to draw letters before they were chiseled into the marble, according to Father Edward Catish. The brush angle was clearly manipulated to form these letters.

 

Maybe TMI?

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

1 hour ago, dms525 said:

 

I think you are confusing nib angle, as in 45º for italic minuscules, with letter slant, as in 55º for copperplate. 

 

Nib angle is different for different scripts that use "italic" nibs. In fact, italic majuscules are written with a flatter nib angle than minuscules. Any good calligraphy book that provides instructions for multiple scripts will specify the proper nib angle for each.

 

Beyond that, some scripts utilize "nib manipulation." That means the nib angle changes for different parts of the letters. This is at least an "intermediate" technique, not for beginners. The most extreme example is probably "Bone Script," which Jaki Svaren designed expressly to teach nib manipulation. Today, Carol Dubosch is probably the leading practitioner of Bone Script. Search for her postings on Instagram. However, this technique is very old. The production of Roman monumental inscriptions utilized a brush to draw letters before they were chiseled into the marble, according to Father Edward Catish. The brush angle was clearly manipulated to form these letters.

 

Maybe TMI?

 

Happy writing!

 

David

Nope.  That is why I specified slant (55 for Copperplate, 52 for Spencerian - but that is just the slant).

 

>>This is at least an "intermediate" technique, not for beginners.<<

 

I am always ready, or curious!

 

>>The most extreme example is probably "Bone Script," which Jaki Svaren designed expressly to teach nib manipulation. Today, Carol Dubosch is probably the leading practitioner of Bone Script. Search for her postings on Instagram.<

 

I don't do any social stuff like Instagram.  But I will look elsewhere.  And I will also search for something like "changing the angle of the nib for different effects" or whatever.  I know there are other ways to hold a fountain pen and nib for different reasons.  Just can't remember where I read about it.  Maybe here at FPN.

 

You're right.  It shouldn't matter with a round, regular nib.  It must be italic nibs and writing that I am thinking of.

 

Thanks again David.

[PhiloPlume]

Here is something I am curious of in regards to italic writing and nib angles.  It is from the Italic writing section of the Speedball 25th anniversary booklet.  I am just in awe of the talent in this book.  It is also why I asked what branching is in a previous topic. Especially "Tall, narrow, light, and delicate".  The page states that all but the last two examples were made with the same pen.

 

I eventually would like to write italic like some of the examples on this page, which looks like to me that I would need to change the angle of the nib as stated in some of the examples. Especially the narrower and finer ones.

 

Eleanor Winters book covering Italic and Copperplate somewhat discusses the angle and size of the nib for Italic writing from what I remember.

 

-paulw

[AAAndrew]

We have a couple of angles we can talk about. There is the angle of the letters to the line of writing, the angle of the pen to the paper, and the angle the pen is held in relation to the direction of writing. Each of these assumes more importance in untipped dip pen nibs than is usual in tipped fountain pens, especially the second and third angles. 

 

With an untipped dip pen, keeping the angle of the nib consistent with the angle of the letter slant is important as too much out of skew and one tine will be bent more than the other and that can damage the pen and/or ruin your line. (

 

 

Keeping your hand in line with the angle of the letters will avoid this. Now, a tipped fountain pen, especially a stiff, inflexible one, will be more forgiving of a hand position like you often see with pencils, ball points and roller balls. Like this. 

 

 

The traditional way of dealing with this would be to either use an oblique pen, where the tines point off at an angle relative to the line of the pen, like these, for example. 

 

 

Or to turn your paper and keep your body and arms in the right position. Like this. 

 

 

 

All of this to say that as for the first kind of angle, the angle of the slant of the letters, there are lots of variations. Traditional copperplate, as David pointed out is usually around 55°. But there were whole schools of penmanship where completely upright writing was encouraged. There's even something called Backhand Writing, which went to the left of perpendicular and was written with a stub pen, like the Esterbrook Chancellor 239. 

 

1890 booklet "Esterbrook Pens and What They Will Do"

 

Pointed pens can be written at a lot of angles. An italic or stub pen, i.e. a broad tip pen, will write very differently depending on the angle it is held, the size of the tip and the size of the letters. There are some, like uncial that can even require a bit of a twist of the pen to make certain shapes, so that the pen is not always at the same angle. 

 

So, feel free to experiment with both pointed as well as broad tipped pens and see what you can come up with. 

 

The diagrams are mostly from my article on the development of oblique dip pens and appeared in the Summer 2020 issue of The Pennant, the magazine for the Pen Collectors of America. 

 

 

[PhiloPlume]

I am still reading your post AAAndrew!

 

I know about the pointed pen and changing the angle so the tines stay in line as I mess around with copperplate and flourishing,...  I drew my Christmas card with a pointed dip pen, a couple different nibs. I was changing the angle of the paper as needed.

 

Now back to your post!

[PhiloPlume]

On 1/21/2025 at 7:34 PM, AAAndrew said:

Pointed pens can be written at a lot of angles. An italic or stub pen, i.e. a broad tip pen, will write very differently depending on the angle it is held, the size of the tip and the size of the letters. There are some, like uncial that can even require a bit of a twist of the pen to make certain shapes, so that the pen is not always at the same angle.

Yes, just like in the page from the Speedball book that I posted here in this thread. I am trying to figure out what exactly Sheila Waters means.  Thanks.

[kronos9]

I've given my two-minute fountain lesson to a number of JH kids, girls, because boys weren't very interested.

 

1. Shiny side up

2. Low angle

3. No pressure

4. Try it

 

And a couple of adults. Same lesson but with nicer pens because I trust them more.

 

[PhiloPlume]

On 5/28/2025 at 5:26 PM, kronos9 said:

I've given my two-minute fountain lesson to a number of JH kids, girls, because boys weren't very interested.

 

1. Shiny side up

2. Low angle

3. No pressure

4. Try it

 

And a couple of adults. Same lesson but with nicer pens because I trust them more.

 

Well, you lost me too! 🙂