Rather heavy, modern pen with Steno-like nib? (50-100 €)

[Tintenfisch]

Hello there,

I am writing German shorthand which heavily relies on thin and thick lines (please see photograph below), that

• need to be distinguished easily and quickly when reading > which means distinguishable line variation (thick = almost double the width of thin)
• thick lines are used quite often in writing > which means line variation should be achieved without too much pressure/effort, as that would exhaust one quickly when writing long sessions (20 or more A5 pages per session is not unusual)

 

I am using a vintage Pelikan Steno so far (please see photograph below). This was the only fountain pen I had until this year and I solely used it for German shorthand.

While the nib is obviously perfect for German shorthand (Steno(graphie) = German shorthand) I would say it is <Fine> or maybe <Extra-Fine> I am no expert and it is difficult to measure.

But I do not like the pen, it is too light with 8 grams (w/o ink cartridge) and when I write quickly, as you do in Steno (100 and more syllables in the minute), the back end of the too light pen is flailing around in the air above my hand, since it is not heavy enough to stay in the valley between thumb and first finger by means of sheer gravity.

 

Long story short, this year I just started with fountain pens and I am now astonished how many different ones there are. My favorite are now demonstrators and my most beloved is the Opus 88 Original Clear/Transparent Flat-Top Demonstrator.

Unfortunately, there are no steno nibs for the Opus 88. Also not for the TWSBI Diamond 580 Clear ALR Demonstrator Prussian Blue, which is my second beloved pen now.

 

So I am looking for a more modern pen, that can

• accomodate a nib that allows for quick line variation without too much pressure/effort
• is heavier than the Pelikan Steno (8 grams is too light) and will stay in hand for long writing by sheer gravity
• is not (!) back-heavy though (I do not post pens and back-heavy makes German steno writing uncomfortable, I tried with the Titanium Asvine V200, the heavy titanium back part always drags my hand down when writing), the weight should be best balanced
• has a value price (50 EUR would be nice, max. 100 EUR including nib I would also pay)
• filling system does not matter (I use bottled ink and can fill with it any eyedropper / piston / vacuum / emptied & cleaned cartridge)
• preferrably a clear demonstrator (however this is not neccessary)

 

Which such pens are there? Preferrably modern pens, that are currently produced and not vintage to rely on rare German eBay findings.

And what modern nibs can resemble the Steno nib behaviour of the Pelikan Steno pen?

 

Thank you for your recommendations!

 

 

 

 

[Tintenfisch]

I just did some research and found this modern pen

• Tom's Studio Pocket pen 2.0

With this nib:

• Extra Fine Semi-Flex Gold

There is also this nib

• Titanium Flex

Which (Gold Semi-Flex or Titanium Flex) would you think fits my above stated use case best? (long writing hours with often line variation with as little as possible pressure needed for broader lines, similar to the Pelikan Steno ST-steel nib)

 

The pen has to be posted since it is a pocket pen, but seems to be rather balanced and not back-heavy, since the post/cap is so long it covers more than half of the length and not only on the back like most caps.

 

[Mercian]

Having looked at your links to the two nibs,  I suspect that the Titanium one would flex more (or more-easily) than the gold one, and thus be 'better' for your Steno use.

But I strongly advise you to use the 'Contact' form on the Tom's Studio website, explain what you want to use the nib for, and ask for their recommendation.

And I wish you good luck with it

 

Slàinte,
M.

[Tintenfisch]

Thank you, Mercian, I just wrote them via their contact form and explained my desired use case.

I hope their pens will be fitting for the use – I just read that their flex nibs were designed for calligraphy, which is different from shorthand / steno, as you don't have to write 200 syllables a minute in calligraphy and having more time, applying more pressure to broaden the line does not really bother you (it sure does if you have to press hard 50-100 times a minute).

 

If the reply from Tom Studio will be positive, I will most likely get the pen and will report how it works out!

[davisgt]

I just find this whole quandary so interesting.  You would need a flexible nib that could move from fine to double broad with a feed that could keep up with the variable ink flow and speed of writing. The nib would necessarily need to be smooth with very little feedback for the line connections. I will be very interested to hear what the community recommends.  

 

I must ask:what do you do that requires German shorthand at 100 syllables per minute? Court stenographers use a stenotype machine.  Journalists use recording devices.  Love to hear more details.  

[Tintenfisch]

5 hours ago, davisgt said:

I just find this whole quandary so interesting.  You would need a flexible nib that could move from fine to double broad with a feed that could keep up with the variable ink flow and speed of writing. The nib would necessarily need to be smooth with very little feedback for the line connections. I will be very interested to hear what the community recommends.  

Hello davisgt, excatly, the requirements for my use case / nib are quite peculiar. As you said it has to work with a higher speed of writing (than let's say calligraphy), thus be flexible enough to require very little pressure for broad lines (it would quickly exhaust you otherwise), yet be controllable at higher speed so you don't accidentally put on broader lines when you don't wish to.

 

The Pelikan Steno pen I have is perfect nib-wise (obviously, since it was designed for German shorthand), it's just the pen body itself that is too light for me.

 

I will await the answer of the Tom's Studio manufacturer and if it fits, I will order it and let you know how it works.

 

5 hours ago, davisgt said:

I must ask:what do you do that requires German shorthand at 100 syllables per minute? Court stenographers use a stenotype machine.  Journalists use recording devices.  Love to hear more details.  

As for the shorthand need: I don't have any, to be honest, it is just a hobby. I startet to self-teach for university but ended up using a laptop like the others anyway. I just "needed" it once for my job when the livestream recording was defunct and it came in handy.

100 syllables is not even that much, I am a self-teaching beginner on the first stage of German Unified shorthand (DEK). There are three stages, progressing from stage to stage by adding more abbrevations and omissions (which makes it very context-dependable the faster you write).

In Germany it was historically taught in secretary and merchant schools, but since the advent of personal computers not any more. It is now only used professionally in the Bundestag (Federal parliament) and I think in some state parliaments as a tradition. As far as I know they still write by hand (most pros use a pencil or even ballpoint though, which I don't like writing with).

[Tintenfisch]

I did some further research and found that there is a manufacturing company from Japan called "Pilot" that produces new (semi-)flexible nibs.

They are called FA or Falcon nibs, however the pens are rather expensive (exceeding my 100 € budget).

 

Maybe I can just get a Pilot flexible nib and put it on a cheaper pen which is compatible, I am now researching which pens will be compatible with the Pilot FA or Falcon flexible nibs (TWSBI or Wing Sung pens would be nice)

 

As a beginner, I only just switched my first nibs cross-manufacturer-wise. It was a Pilot kaküno <Fine> nib into a Wing Sung 698 piston filler, it fits nicely even with the "feeder unit" being swappable between those two. However for the Pilot nib, it would be enough if just the nib is swappable and fits on the other feeder unit. As far as I have researched, it is rare that nibs + feeder units are interchangeable between different brands or even pen models of the same brand. 

[A Smug Dill]

25 minutes ago, Dominink said:

Maybe I can just get a Pilot flexible nib and put it on a cheaper pen which is compatible,

 

Pilot does not offer the nibs, or nib units, for the Custom product line as SKUs to retail customers. To get a “Pilot flexible nib”, generally speaking you have to buy the whole pen, whether you want to use it in the Custom resin pen body or not.

[Tintenfisch]

9 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Pilot does not offer the nibs, or nib units, for the Custom product line as SKUs to retail customers. To get a “Pilot flexible nib”, generally speaking you have to buy the whole pen, whether you want to use it in the Custom resin pen body or not.

 

Thanks for letting me know! Then it is unfortunately too expensive and I will look for another solution (the Toms Studio flexible pen or some other affordable nib).

[davisgt]

I was going to mention the Falcon nib, but it was just outside of your budget. The Pilot 742 is somewhat less expensive than the 743 or the 823. It also has a Falcon option.  I was also wondering about the music nib as a possibility.  

 

My mom was a secretary for many years before the advent of computers and handheld recording devices.  She took American shorthand at approximately 200 words per minute.  She used a pencil.  😁

[Orval]

Line variation without pression variation: Isn't that exactly what any italic/stub or architect nibs do?

[Penguincollector]

  There is an American pen called Esterbrook that might fit your needs. They were a vintage brand that had several different types of nibs, including steno, and they recently were revitalized and have modern, larger (than the vintage models) pens that an adapter can be purchased and fitted to in order to use the vintage nibs. They might be over your budget new, but have been on the market long enough now for there to be used ones available for purchase. 
 

  Mind you, this is all I know about the new Estie. I don’t know if they are good quality, or how the old nibs work with the new pens. Some members have bought them, so you could probably dig up some older posts and online reviews. 

[Tintenfisch]

4 hours ago, davisgt said:

I was going to mention the Falcon nib, but it was just outside of your budget. The Pilot 742 is somewhat less expensive than the 743 or the 823. It also has a Falcon option.  I was also wondering about the music nib as a possibility.  

 

My mom was a secretary for many years before the advent of computers and handheld recording devices.  She took American shorthand at approximately 200 words per minute.  She used a pencil.  😁

 

Thank you for the recommendations, I will add the Pilot pens to my search list on a German 2nd hand sales website and German eBay. Maybe I will find them in used good condition for a cheaper price. Falcon nib seems to be similar to the use case I require, at least according to some reviews. 

 

Interesting that your mother is proficient in shorthand and is so fast! I am a measly self-taught beginner with maybe 30-40 words a minute, but then again German words can be long (compounds). I envy the English/US shorthand (Gregg or Pitt it's called, if I remember correctly) which can be written with almost any writing tool, since it does not rely on variation of line width like the German DEK system.

 

 

3 hours ago, Orval said:

Line variation without pression variation: Isn't that exactly what any italic/stub or architect nibs do?

 

I have to say I am a fountain pen beginner and never tried Italic nibs, but as far as I have researched, they will broaden every downstroke. For German shorthand you only need broader lines on some selected downstrokes (indicating specific vowels or vowel connections), so you need to apply the line width by pressure rather than by holding the nib/tines in a certain position.

I could be wrong, though since I never used Italic, stub or Architect nibs.

 

3 hours ago, Penguincollector said:

  There is an American pen called Esterbrook that might fit your needs. They were a vintage brand that had several different types of nibs, including steno, and they recently were revitalized and have modern, larger (than the vintage models) pens that an adapter can be purchased and fitted to in order to use the vintage nibs. They might be over your budget new, but have been on the market long enough now for there to be used ones available for purchase. 
 

  Mind you, this is all I know about the new Estie. I don’t know if they are good quality, or how the old nibs work with the new pens. Some members have bought them, so you could probably dig up some older posts and online reviews. 

 

Thank you, I will add them to my research list! I have heard of them (Esterbrook) since they make nice pen pouches which are even available in Germany (although quite expensive). I will definitely look up some reviews about their models and compatibility with their older flex nibs. I didn't even know "Steno" nibs was a thing outside of Germany, since most international shorthand systems do not rely on line variation, thus do not need special nibs for that.

[Penguincollector]

I just learned that Pilot made steno nibs - there’s more information on a thread in the Japan forum that talkes about Pilot nibs. I don’t know if other shorthand languages had need of a similar nib, but a bit of research can give you the answer. 

[davisgt]

21 minutes ago, Dominink said:

Interesting that your mother is proficient in shorthand and is so fast! I am a measly self-taught beginner with maybe 30-40 words a minute, but then again German words can be long (compounds). I envy the English/US shorthand (Gregg or Pitt it's called, if I remember correctly) which can be written with almost any writing tool, since it does not rely on variation of line width like the German DEK system.

Well, my mom is 83, so she started learning Gregg shorthand when she was in high school.  She could also type over 100 words a minute on a manual typewriter.  🤯🤯  She always joked that it was very easy to take shorthand.  Far more difficult to read back her shorthand and translate it back to actual words.  🤣🤣

 

She made certain I took piano lessons, so I could learn how to read music, and a full year of typing classes when I was growing up. She was obviously prescient,  since I use both skills so extensively as an adult.  I am so grateful I had those opportunities.  

 

I applaud your dedication to this passion you have.  You have no idea how beneficial it might be in your future.  

[Lithium466]

What about the Wing Sung 698 14k? It fits the transparent demonstrator and budget, and apparently the nib is nice and soft (I haven't tried myself), which maybe could be enough to provide some light line variation.

There's also the Platinum 3776 SF, that is a soft nib, but you can definitely get a bit of line variation, at leat dryer/wetter variation.

 

[Tintenfisch]

Thank you all for your contributions and recommendations!

 

I have now decided to extend my budget to max 250 € (about 260 US $).

This now puts some Pilot Flex nib pens within reach. So far also thanks to your tips I have researched Pilot models:

912, 742, 743, 823

 

• Are any of these models available as a clear demonstrator?
• would they all be compatible with the Pilot Flex nib? (Called FA or Falcon depending on the website) – or even can you buy them with a flex nib already installed by Pilot?

 

In this video the Pilot FA / Falcon nib seems to do quite a good job for flex writing (test from 11:00) https://youtu.be/reQj-Nmva40?t=660&si=1tq6QBuJV3YSJZ3s 

However, he says you should replace the stock feed by a third party aftermarket ebony feed to get good writing qualitites.

 

Also, I found the wonderful Opus 88 Clear Demonstrator also is available with an <EF Flex> nib, which would be considerably less expensive than the Pilots: 

https://www.stiloestile.com/en/fountain-pens/opus-88-demonstrator-fountain-pen-clear#/221-nib_size-flex_extrafine

 

This might be another option, I am now doing some video reviews research on those pens.

 

2 hours ago, Lithium466 said:

What about the Wing Sung 698 14k? It fits the transparent demonstrator and budget, and apparently the nib is nice and soft (I haven't tried myself), which maybe could be enough to provide some light line variation.

There's also the Platinum 3776 SF, that is a soft nib, but you can definitely get a bit of line variation, at leat dryer/wetter variation.

 

 

I actually came across that pen (Wing Sung 698 14k), but I found it impossible to find with delivery to Germany. The 14 k nibs seem to be sold out everywhere and the normal 698 with steel nib would not be right for my using case I fear.

[davisgt]

I have only recently arrived to the joys of these particular Pilot pens. I own the custom 823 in translucent Amber. Great pen with a vacumatic filling system and large ink capacity.  I know both the 742 and 743 have the Falcon nib. You can actually buy both on Amazon.  Lots of other nib choices as well. I believe the 92 comes in clear demonstrators. I don't know how interchangeable the nibs are between models. Lots of posts about these models in the Japanese forum. 

[Lithium466]

The 823 may exist in clear demonstrator with FA nib. I'm not sure about the FA nib for shorthand, you also have the option of the Pilot Custom 74 with SF or SFM nib, they have some translucent options (maybe not clear transparent). The 92 doesn't come with soft nibs, although one from a 74 or 91 can always be transplanted there.

 

Last I checked the WS 698 was available on Aliexpress, they may have changed the name...let me check

 

 

 

Back to your post, you have the FA nib, which is a flexible/semi flexible depending on who you ask and how you want to put it, available on the Pilot 742/912/743/823, and you have the Pilot Falcon, which comes in several finishes, full plastic or metal/plastic, and 3 tipping sizes, SEF/SF/SM. Not a flex nib but a soft nib, from which you can squeeze some line variation. Do not believe the videos you see, most have modified the nib to show some extreme line variation.

And then you have the "soft" nibs in 3 sizes (SF/SFM/SM), available on the 74/91(?)/742/912/743 and perhaps 823. Again not flex nibs, but soft nibs.

 

https://www.pilot-custom.jp/en/feature/nib.html

[Lithium466]

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32807762551.html
 

Yong Sheng

 

not sure about delivery to Germany, and not affiliated with that seller, just the first I found.