Basic Noob question about Pilot converters

[bc.hiker]

I have a Pilot Metropolitan (MB?) with a stub nib and a Con-B converter squeeze type with a sac.  I would like to know if this pen is also compatible with Pilot screw type converters CON-40 or CON-50 and if so, will both of them fit them pen?  I've read complaints about the CON-40 not holding (or drawing in) very much ink, like only half of the capacity of the converter.  The pen I have hasn't been inked yet and I have no experience with Japanese pens and really know nothing about them.  Because I've had old vintage pens with sacs there's always the concern about sac disintegration and I was thinking maybe a screw type converter would be more ink friendly?  Maybe I shouldn't be concerned about it at all?  Thanks very much for your input and thoughts.  

[A Smug Dill]

Both the CON-40 and CON-50 will fit a Pilot MR fountain pen.

 

The capacity of the CON-40 is officially 0.4ml as stated by Pilot. Full travel of the converter's piston just once will draw 0.4ml of ink from the bottle; it's just that a significant proportion of it will be trapped inside the cavity of the pen's grip section (including the feed), if the user fills through the nib and feed in accordance with Pilot's published guidance. That ink is still inside the pen, and available for writing with, but you just cannot see it at the top end of the converter's tube through its clear walls. Some people imagine that if they can see empty space there, then the converter must not be doing its job properly, and they're being shortchanged; but it's their framing or understanding that is defective. They should be getting 0.4ml of ink, not what they think is the full potential of the space inside the pen (including the converter's tube) that is available for holding ink.

 

Wanting to be able to carry more ink volume on board, and seeing there is room for it, does not somehow entitle them to achieve that with a single draw of the piston; and Pilot never promised it, so the customer is not always right on this issue. In fact, Pilot's instruction video clearly shows that the converter is not intended to fill to the top when used as designed. Alas, when you explain (or mansplain?) to a user where their understanding does not align with Pilot's position so it definitely isn't Pilot's fault, if they want to find fault with someone at all, some of them get indignant and angry with being “told”.

[bc.hiker]

Thank you A Smug Dill for educating me on the 'half full' appearance of the converter after an ink draw.  Makes perfect sense in your explanation.  So I'll disregard those naysayers who complain that they're not getting a full 0.4 ml draw from the converter.  I so appreciate you taking the time to clarify this feedback comment to me, as it did make me wonder about it.  Now I won't have any qualms about getting a CON-40 converter for the pen.  Those comments about the converter can easily make one think that it's a cheap, junk converter that doesn't do it's job and that it isn't worth buying ~ which is NOT the case at all.  Many thanks!  

[inkstainedruth]

I know that some types of Pilot converters do not fit all models but don't remember offhand which converters do (or don't) fit which pens.

I mostly have Metropolitans and Decimos plus the VP I gave my husband, the freebie Plumix I got at B/W last month, and one Pilot Falcon.  And I know that they pretty much all take the Con-B converters and (I think) Con-40 ones.  

I think the "weird" converter may be the Con-70, which IIRC do NOT fit in my pens (but don't quote me on that because I'm not 100% sure...).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[SHPenFan]

I would not be too worried about sac longevity with the squeeze converter. I have known people who have used it for around a decade without too many problems. I also know that it can fit most other pilot pens (I have tried it on a Pilot E95s).

 

Pilot's Con-70 is too big to fit in most pilot pens (such as the MR/Metropolitan, the E95s, and the resin pilot falcon).

[A Smug Dill]

5 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

I know that some types of Pilot converters do not fit all models but don't remember offhand which converters do (or don't) fit which pens.

 

Yep, it's the CON-70 (since superseded by the CON-70N) that does not fit every Pilot pen model — it won't fit the Capless, resin-bodied variants of the Elabo (aka Falcon), Elite 95S, MR, Prera, 78G and 78G+, Parallel, etc.

 

The discontinued CON-50 fit almost everything, except (if I recall correctly) the Elite 95S; but I haven't tried it in my Pilot Cavalier.

 

The also discontinued CON-20 also fit almost everything.

 

The CON-B fits everything, except it doesn't work well with Capless variants that uses a ‘knock’ (or push button) mechanism for nib deployment and retraction.

[Misfit]

@A Smug Dill thank you for explaining the Pilot converter. I recently filled a Prera, and was wondering why it didn’t fill like other converters do. Goes to show we can always learn more in this pen hobby. 

[Number99]

It has been pointed out to the Japanese community that some Pilot fountain pens have longer section pegs/nipple, in which case "Dead Space" is more likely to be apparent.

 

20 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

I think the "weird" converter may be the Con-70, which IIRC do NOT fit in my pens (but don't quote me on that because I'm not 100% sure...).

 

14 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Yep, it's the CON-70 (since superseded by the CON-70N) that does not fit every Pilot pen model — it won't fit the Capless, resin-bodied variants of the Elabo (aka Falcon), Elite 95S, MR, Prera, 78G and 78G+, Parallel, etc.

 

The discontinued CON-50 fit almost everything, except (if I recall correctly) the Elite 95S; but I haven't tried it in my Pilot Cavalier.

 

The also discontinued CON-20 also fit almost everything.

CON-70N is an improved converter with an agitator added to solve the "Shelf-Suspension Phenomenon." (棚吊り現象) that occurred with the CON-70.

The "Shelf-Suspension Phenomenon." is a phenomenon in which ink sticks to the space above the converter and does not come down.

The CON-70 CON-70N is a converter for tip fill feed for the Custom 74 series, 845, Heritage, and the NEW Elabo (Metal body).

https://ameblo.jp/kamisama-samasama/image-12564705139-14499380871.html

 

https://www.sumi-ri.com/ink-converter.html

 

There is no information on how it works for other fountain pens.

Even if it is possible to install it, it may be difficult to immerse it in ink until the Section or to operate the inhalation. Or it may not function efficiently as an aerometric type converter. I am guessing that the converter pipe and the feed groove need to be connected.

Sorry, I have only seen the Elite and Lady Short feed/collector.

 

The Japanese specialty shop website has a proviso: "Some of the above models cannot be installed due to body size, so please consult with them before purchase.

 

This post of mine consists of quotes from Japanese articles. ( It is not accompanied by any experience with converters other than CON-40).

So please make supplementary corrections.

 

 

 

[XYZZY]

The CON-70(N) works fine in the pens that do not fill from the front of the feed.   My very first fountain pen was a Pilot Kakuno with a CON-70. 

 

That converter will fit onto the section of pens like the MR/Metropolitan, and technically will work to fill the pen with ink. The problem is that the barrel of the pen is too small to fit over the converter, preventing you from reassembling the pen after filling it. Perhaps some of the barrels could be drilled out to make it fit, but I haven’t had any interest in doing that. 

[Number99]

18 hours ago, XYZZY said:

The CON-70(N) works fine in the pens that do not fill from the front of the feed.   My very first fountain pen was a Pilot Kakuki with a CON-70. 

 

That converter will fit onto the section of pens like the MR/Metropolitan, and technically will work to fill the pen with ink. The problem is that the barrel of the pen is too small to fit over the converter, preventing you from reassembling the pen after filling it. Perhaps some of the barrels could be drilled out to make it fit, but I haven’t had any interest in doing that. 

Thank you for the correction.

 

Most reviews of the CON-70N on Japanese review sites are mostly positive. (These are reviews by users of CON-70N compatible models.)

There was a case where some users consulted a question-and-answer site about a problem that did not work.

The answer was, "Make sure to insert the converter all the way in, stand the pen up, dip it into the bottle up to the section, and push it vigorously.”

 

HAKASE has created its own YouTube video recommending that even compatible models, i.e., Tip-Fill-Feed, use a bottle with a reservoir and dip the pen into the bottle up to the section.

If dipping the pen into the bottle up to the section works, then it will work even if the pen is not tip-fill-feed.

On second thought, it is natural that air would be sucked in with the ink from the gap between the nib and the feed if it is not immersed to the section.

https://fp-hakase.com/about_ink/

 

 

The ink fills to the brim ; it is interesting to watch at 0.25x speed starting around the 50 second mark.

 

P.S.

In the case of aerometric type converters, the air in the dead space inside the pen moves to the top of the converter, so theoretically that function should allow it to drain into the bottle via the tube.

Otherwise, the tube inside the converter is meaningless.

I suspect that it is not the dead space in the pen but the functional dead space in the converter itself that is manifesting itself.

Therefore, I would assume that the excess air in the converter headspace that occurs in the CON-70N has nothing to do with the volume of dead space inside the pen.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2024 by Number99

[XYZZY]

I like the CON-70 as well, and the CON-70N that I have seems easier to fill with and get less air in it than the non-N versions.  But I haven't tried to actually compare them in any objective way, it might all be in my head.

 

I don't have any problems with the CON-40 though, once I let go of the idea that I'll fill it to the top.  If you like switching inks frequently then it's smaller capacity might be a plus.  Not to mention that it's cheaper, fits in all the pens, and it's simpler for somebody to understand if you want to loan/give a pen.

 

For the OP: just get a CON-40.  The 50 isn't so much better that it's worth the trouble of hunting one down.  The 40 isn't bad, and you can get get a slightly better fill with some practice.  If you're worried about it not completely filling, then I have to wonder why you think your CON-B fills completely?  It's opaque so you just don't know.  If the 40 not filling still bothers you then wrap it in duct tape so that you can be blissfully ignorant just as with the B 😀

 

A tip for cleaning the 40:  it can be hard to squirt water into the converter to clean it because of the metal retaining ring that holds the agitator balls.  But a 20 gauge needle is small enough to fit through its opening.  So to clean I put a 20guage needle onto a large syringe and squirt water in with that.  I have found some people complain that their needle is too fat and won't pass the retaining ring, but they are just using too fat a needle.

[Number99]

1 hour ago, XYZZY said:

If the 40 not filling still bothers you then wrap it in duct tape so that you can be blissfully ignorant just as with the B 😀

That is the most novel idea of the various threads that have discussed the topic of pilot converters.

😂

 

Correction.

This may have been the FPN way to reply.

+1

👍

Edited April 17, 2024 by Number99

[XYZZY]

16 hours ago, Number99 said:

 

The ink fills to the brim ; it is interesting to watch at 0.25x speed starting around the 50 second mark.

Thanks for suggesting watching it as 0.25X.  I wouldn't have thought of that and it was interesting to see.  Especially how the first few pumps pulled up a little bit of ink, later pumps pulled up more.  I wonder if perhaps the change was due to the ink level getting up the to tube or place where the rubber part rests and attempts to seal? I assume it attempts to seal, I don't really understand how the CON-70 works.

[Number99]

On 4/18/2024 at 5:37 AM, XYZZY said:

Thanks for suggesting watching it as 0.25X.  I wouldn't have thought of that and it was interesting to see.  Especially how the first few pumps pulled up a little bit of ink, later pumps pulled up more.  I wonder if perhaps the change was due to the ink level getting up the to tube or place where the rubber part rests and attempts to seal? I assume it attempts to seal, I don't really understand how the CON-70 works.

This is the usual 「萬年筆グラフ」"Fountain Pen Graph" blog post.

The same principle of the slat-type inhalation mechanism is used to explain the CON-70(N).

I think you can understand it just by the schematic diagram. You can also read the article in Japanese if you like.

 

When the piston is pushed down.

https://ameblo.jp/kamisama-samasama/image-12263739771-13910301940.html

 

When the piston is released.

https://ameblo.jp/kamisama-samasama/image-12263739771-13910298906.html

 

https://ameblo.jp/kamisama-samasama/entry-12263739771.html

Addition.

The article explains how the CON-70(N) Push type converter works in a series of articles, moving on to the "Previous article".

 

P.S.

In addition to this(?) CON-70(N) seems to have a mechanism to stabilize operation by increasing negative pressure through quick repetition of pressing down. I am not sure about that part...

Edited April 19, 2024 by Number99

[Number99]

On 4/18/2024 at 5:37 AM, XYZZY said:

the rubber part rests and attempts to seal? I assume it attempts to seal,

I believe your explanation is correct.

 

When the press button/piston is pressed down, the (rubber parts) stopper and rubber parts seal the ink and prevent backflow, while air is expelled through a small hole above the pipe into the ink bottle via the pipe.

 

When the press button is released, the seal between the rubber part and the (rubber parts) stopper is disconnected, allowing ink to flow into the cylinder.

I believe the (rubber parts) stopper and rubber parts act as a "valve". 

 

I would think that when the converter is not held vertically, the rubber parts would not move properly and the sucked up ink would flow backwards.

 

I speculate that the CON-70N may have the agitator acting as a weighted rubber part and the valve functioning more reliably as a valve.

 

It would have more interesting if the video had been slow filmed comparing the 70 and 70N with a translucent liquid, such as by diluting the ink much more.

 

By the way, a disassembled image of CON70 can be found in this article.

https://ameblo.jp/kamisama-samasama/entry-12264653731.html

 

 

Edited April 21, 2024 by Number99
Change in wording.

[bc.hiker]

Thanks for sharing the interesting video.  Forever learning.  

[XYZZY]

@Number99 I apologize for not replying sooner, but I wanted to spend time looking at them, especially with a separate window and deepl because the translators I was using were not helpful.  Thank you very much for both of your posts about the CON-70.  Those are helpful to me. 

 

I know I have a disassembled CON-70 somewhere.  If I can find it (and that's a big "if") I'll sit down with those drawings and the parts and work my way through it.  The little hole in the tube is something I recall seeing but just dismissed it.  I obviously shouldn't have done that: the fact that they bothered to put it there means it's there for a reason.

[XYZZY]

Any idea where I can find that patent?  The illustration says "PAT. NO. 410661.424210."  Maybe that's two patents and the "." is a separator?  Either way, I'm not having any luck.  I could search by those numbers and find something that looked like a patent, but they had nothing to do with pens.

[XYZZY]

On 4/20/2024 at 9:45 PM, Number99 said:

I would think that when the converter is not held vertically, the rubber parts would not move properly and the sucked up ink would flow backwards.

 

I speculate that the CON-70N may have the agitator acting as a weighted rubber part and the valve functioning more reliably as a valve.

 

It would have more interesting if the video had been slow filmed comparing the 70 and 70N with a translucent liquid, such as by diluting the ink much more.

 

By the way, a disassembled image of CON70 can be found in this article.

https://ameblo.jp/kamisama-samasama/entry-12264653731.html

 

 

 

Yes, the CON-70 is certainly harder to fill when held at an angle.  I think that is not understood by some people, which can lead to frustration.  And of course the natural thing to do when trying to fill from a nearly empty bottle is to hold it at an angle.  Pilot somewhat addresses this by having ink fill from the front of the feed instead of at the section, but that only goes so far.  And most people seem unaware of that design feature, too; or else they just don't appreciate it.  I try to sneak it into a conversation when I can, but probably just come off as obsessed nerd. 😛

[Number99]

17 hours ago, XYZZY said:

Any idea where I can find that patent?  The illustration says "PAT. NO. 410661.424210."  Maybe that's two patents and the "." is a separator?  Either way, I'm not having any luck.  I could search by those numbers and find something that looked like a patent, but they had nothing to do with pens.

Patent numbers 410661 and 424210 should be fine, but I got a "no references" result for these patent numbers. I do not know why.

Is it possible that the patents are invalid for some reason...

 

The form on this website allows you to search for Japanese patents by entering only the patent number.

https://www.j-platpat.inpit.go.jp/s0100

 

17 hours ago, XYZZY said:

the translators I was using were not helpful. 

Japanese is a language that omits the subject, and in conversation this is increasingly evident. This time the author of the blog explains it in the form of a conversation between Holmes and Watson, so I think the translation software has lost track of who is who.

 

18 hours ago, bc.hiker said:

Forever learning.  

 

17 hours ago, XYZZY said:

the CON-70 is certainly harder to fill when held at an angle.  I think that is not understood by some people, which can lead to frustration.  And of course the natural thing to do when trying to fill from a nearly empty bottle is to hold it at an angle.  Pilot somewhat addresses this by having ink fill from the front of the feed instead of at the section, but that only goes so far.  And most people seem unaware of that design feature, too; or else they just don't appreciate it.  I try to sneak it into a conversation when I can, but probably just come off as obsessed nerd. 😛

It is difficult even for me, a Japanese person, to understand the correct operation of the CON-70(N) by watching the video produced by Pilot without knowing how the converter works.

I think Pilot should have explained clearly how the CON-70 mechanism works and the problems that can be caused by mishandling, using an animation etc.

 

The threads on pilot converters, especially CON-70, are often confusing discussions. It is beneficial to the community to have more English- speaker "nerds" who have the ability to calm down the discussion.

😁