extra fine and "ultra extra fine" recommendations

[fountain_new]

I keep hearing about these options. Are there any affordable pens out there with 'ultra extra fine' nibs? My handwriting isn't so tiny, but I do find that medium sometimes is a bit wide, and I wonder if my handwriting might not look okay with a significantly thinner line and a dark ink. Craziness?

[inkstainedruth]

I don't know about inexpensive pens with XEF nibs offhand, but you might get lucky on a vintage pen with an EF nib if you scope out antiques stores and estate sales on a regular basis.

You might also look at Japanese pens (Pilot, Sailor and Platinum), since their nibs tend to run a little narrower than European ones just in general, IME (the same way that nibs on vintage pens often do).  I know that all three brands have a wide range of models, including student-grade pens -- but since I tend to NOT like EF nibs all that much myself, I'm not sure what pens they have in the lower price models which come with EF or XEF nibs.

Another option is to buy an inexpensive pen with an EF nib and have a nibmeister regrind it to your liking -- although that will obviously bump up the overall price you've paid for the pen.

Sorry I can't be of more help.  A few years ago, I found a used Vanishing Point in an antiques and collecibles shop (for about a quarter/third of the price of a new one, before Pilot raised their prices).  Gave it to my husband but he didn't like the F nib on it.  That gave ME the excuse to buy a Decimo for myself and get one with an EF nib to swap the nib assemblies between the two pens, and he LOVES the pen now -- he uses it to take notes at zoom meetings for his job and to write code.  And since he decided he wanted another color ink besides black, he's currently borrowing one of my vintage Sheaffer Snorkels, since he's misplaced the Safari with an EF nib he had me order for him last spring.....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

[Karmachanic]

Affordable is subjective.  Start with an EF nib and see how that goes. M is usually 0.5/6 mm.  EF 0.3/0.4.  If that's too wide Japanese EF is 0.2 for Pilot/Sailor.

[txomsy]

Yeah, go Japanese. You shouldn't have problems finding a good Pilot pen.

[Lithium466]

Maybe a Pilot 78G+ in EF?

There's always the Platinum 3776 in UEF, of course, but that's not the same budget.

[Paul-in-SF]

Between Pilot and Platinum for EF nibs, I would stick with Pilot, my experience with Platinum EF nibs has been uneven (some nibs good, some not so much). I can't speak to Sailor EF nibs, I don't think I have ever tried any (not being a fan of Sailor in general). A Pilot Kakuno with EF nib and converter will run you around $22 in the US, plus tax and shipping, or around $30 total. Plus they're kind of cute, if you like that sort of thing. 

[inkstainedruth]

Trying to remember now if you can swap out the nibs on Kakunos for other Pilot models (I've been told that some nibs, like those on Metropolitans, IIRC) fit the Plumix pens).  But I've really liked both of my Metropolitans a lot (one has an M nib and the other has a 1 mm stub nib).   And if you don't get one with the goofy designs on the band (the Metropolitan "Pop" pens) they're pretty professional looking.  

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[markofp]

What you are looking for is what is referred to as a "posting" nib, an extra-extra fine nib with a slight downturn that was made for writing a great deal on postcards. Pilot has three models that feature it, the 912, 743 and 742 and they are all very smooth and very fine. As to their affordability, purchase from a Japanese source and you will pay probably about 50% of the US MSRP. 

 

[A Smug Dill]

 

[arcfide]

If you want some of the most affordable fine nibs, the Platinum Preppy pens come in Fine and Extra Fine which are very fine nibs. They're great for trying out the nib size. I'd also get the medium, which is a nice, smooth writer. These pens are cheaper than just about everything else refillable, but they're extremely high quality for what they are, and I think Platinum did something really remarkable in bringing them to market as they did. Highly recommended if you want to see how you like writing with very fine nibs. 

[mke]

@fountain_new

Going from medium to UEF is like leaving this for another world. Should be well-prepared.

 

> but I do find that medium sometimes is a bit wide

If it is just "a bit wide", then you probably might just need an F or an EF nib. The best (and cheapest) would be to try the possibilities before buying something.

 

Be aware that the line size of nibs can vary between the makers and even between the same nib size from one maker and also between gold and steel nibs. And the paper and the inks also play a role.

 

My personal ranking goes

M ~ Pilot M   >   F ~ Sailor M   >   Jowo EF ~ Sailor MF (ca. 0.35-0.38 mm   >   Sailor/Pilot/Platinum F (ca. 0.3 mm)   >   Jowo/Bock XXF ~ Sailor/Pilot/Platinum EF (ca. 0.2 mm)  >  Jowo XXXF (called needle-point, 0.1 mm)  

 

As I said, the nib output varies, I have several Jowo 18k EFs and they all write differently. But very similar, of course.

 

I am not sure if you will see a difference between a Platinum EF and UEF, they produce very similar line sizes. When I tested them at a shop, both nibs produced exactly the same line-size (I checked). Possible that they had been damaged by people using too much force.

 

Try the normal nibs before you start thinking about specialty nibs like posting, flex or others.

 

Regarding: improving your handwriting: training, training, training. But don't forget that the pen form/dimensions and the way you hold it also has a huge influence.

 

If you prefer to test at home, get a pen where you can unscrew the housing with feed and nib, swap with a different sized nib and get some nibs, e.g. from fpnibs.com where you can get everything down to XXXF.

 

My personal preferred width is 0.25 mm, commercial Jowo 14k/18k EF and commercial Bock 380 14k EF come very near, so I accept the small difference to the optimum.

 

 

 

 

[Sailor Kenshin]

2 hours ago, arcfide said:

If you want some of the most affordable fine nibs, the Platinum Preppy pens come in Fine and Extra Fine which are very fine nibs. They're great for trying out the nib size. I'd also get the medium, which is a nice, smooth writer. These pens are cheaper than just about everything else refillable, but they're extremely high quality for what they are, and I think Platinum did something really remarkable in bringing them to market as they did. Highly recommended if you want to see how you like writing with very fine nibs. 

 

I second that, and I even have a Platinum 3776 Soft EF.

 

VERY fine nibs can sometimes be scratchy, but not so with the Preppy.

 

Affordable? I also have some Esterbrooks with probably some of the finest nibs I own.  Not scratchy either.  The 1550 or so.

[Penguincollector]

  I have found Chinese school pens to have some of the narrowest affordable nibs. Brands I like are Chren, Yiren, and WingSung. Look on Aliexpress or Temu. Other than that, Platinum: the Preppy 02, or there are vintage Platinum pens available on eBay. I have a 14k BelAge that writes ridiculously fine, and I paid $50 for it.  There are steel nibbed versions for as low as $15. 

 

 
 

[Paul-in-SF]

@markofp is right, in my opinion, about the PO (posting) nib from Pilot being an excellent choice for someone who wants a very fine line with no line variation. The pens mentioned, even bought directly from Japan, are still in the $150-$175 ballpark with shipping, which OP may or may not consider to be affordable. 

[jmccarty3]

I have a Sailor EF and a Pilot EF that are wonderful and not scratchy. The Sailor is marginally better. I tried a Platinum UEF several years ago and found it to require an unnaturally light touch, so I sold it. What you are looking for is going to be from Japan, unless you pay for the services of a nibmeister. Getting a custom grind is the ideal way to go if you can get to a show. It's just me, but I would feel a lot more comfortable getting a 0.1-0.2 mm grind in person, where I could try it out. I have to use nibs like this at work, where I fill out tiny forms on crappy paper, so I need a reliable pen.

[mke]

41 minutes ago, jmccarty3 said:

What you are looking for is going to be from Japan, unless you pay for the services of a nibmeister.

Why? OP is using M nibs and said they are a bid! broad. So, there is still F and EF available without needing a nibmeister.

IMO, plan A would be to go to a place where one can test different nibs. If not available, than Platinum Preppys in F and EF would be plan B. Everything else should wait until OP knows more about his wants.

 

[markofp]

1 hour ago, jmccarty3 said:

 What you are looking for is going to be from Japan, unless you pay for the services of a nibmeister. Getting a custom grind is the ideal way to go if you can get to a show. It's just me, but I would feel a lot more comfortable getting a 0.1-0.2 mm grind in person, where I could try it out. 

 

I agree and disagree. The BEST way to go is to find a pen with a nib that you can live with without anybody trying to grind it into something it's not. I say this because my experiences with nib grinders has been uniformly bad. A couple of years ago I gave a Pilot 823 medium to a well-known nib grinder at a pen show, looking to have it reduced to a fine/medium. What I got back was appalling, the character of the nib changed from Pilot smoothness to scratchy, and all of a sudden there was nib creep where there wasn't before. I wound up sending it to Pilot in Jacksonville to have the nib replaced with the original size. Remember about nib grinding: when the guy hands it back to you and says "try it out", and you don't like it, you're likely past the point of no return. 

 

Most reputable pen dealers will take a pen back if it only been dipped, as opposed to filled. Go that route, and by all means try the Japanese pens first. They really are some of the best.

[Sailor Kenshin]

It has yet to be established what 'affordable' means here.

[fountain_new]

Sorry about vanishing from the thread. I appreciate the responses.

 

$100+ is a lot of money for me, especially right now, especially when I don't know what I'm doing.. I ordered a Kakuno to try it out.

[jchch1950]

4 hours ago, fountain_new said:

Sorry about vanishing from the thread. I appreciate the responses.

 

$100+ is a lot of money for me, especially right now, especially when I don't know what I'm doing.. I ordered a Kakuno to try it out.

Good choice.