Spencerian books!

[Irelaand]

Hello everyone! 
after asking for advice prior to this post on my handwriting (thank you for everyone that responded!) I did a lot of research of finding handwriting styles I liked and I settled on Spencerian. Thus I stumbled across a video with these cheap ($25) original style books that I purchased on Amazon. From what I have seen so far good practice and theory for someone learning the style.

 

Here the books are as they have just arrived today! I plan to continue my practice regularly maybe 10-15 min every day with my girlfriend as a way to connect over improving our handwriting! As I personally find my handwriting I take much pride in so why not make it the best I can? 
 

One question I do have, what is the best type of nib (besides dip pen stuff) to do this writing? I have a F & M Cross nibs and then an OM Montblanc nib that has quite nice flex to it. 
 

Here’s a look at the books!  
 

[arcfide]

For practicing in these books, I'd emphasize two things: 1) thoroughly read and understand the theory book, as it's critical to making the practice books worthwhile, IMO; and, 2) use the finest nib width you can stand. The proportions of Spencerian are distinguished in their long flowing curves and very subtle turns, which are hard to criticize and "get right" without seeing the very precise path of the nib shown by very fine nibs. A wider nib will cover up some of the important subtleties at the turns and transitions, making improvement more difficult. 

 

Also, the books themselves are absorbent paper, so I'd use a dry, very well-behaved ink and maybe a drier writing pen as well to maximize your ability to see what is going on with each stroke. 

[Irelaand]

10 hours ago, arcfide said:

For practicing in these books, I'd emphasize two things: 1) thoroughly read and understand the theory book, as it's critical to making the practice books worthwhile, IMO; and, 2) use the finest nib width you can stand. The proportions of Spencerian are distinguished in their long flowing curves and very subtle turns, which are hard to criticize and "get right" without seeing the very precise path of the nib shown by very fine nibs. A wider nib will cover up some of the important subtleties at the turns and transitions, making improvement more difficult. 

 

Also, the books themselves are absorbent paper, so I'd use a dry, very well-behaved ink and maybe a drier writing pen as well to maximize your ability to see what is going on with each stroke. 

Okay thank you for all the advice! 
Yes I have definitely heard that the theory is the most important part so I will most definitely take lots of time reading and understanding that book.

 

As for the pen I think that’s very interesting but it does make quite a lot of sense, the current pen (my cross solo) has a very fine and is quite a dry writer so that will work perfectly I think! 
 

Thanks,

Irelaand 

[Inkyways]

Before using the books Make every  book photocopied... and have them as loose leaves.

Then use a pencil. A mechanical .5 is the ideal. Don't use any thicker line In pencil or in Pens. ( If you use a pen always use an EF line. ) Japanese Ef is the ideal or F would do to see clear  Mistakes. Any medium wide line will hide all your mistake so you will fail in finding your minor mistakes to any larger ones) These books are  on  learning Spencerian hand but it is the  Business hand . So you don't need to know how to get thick shades from the beginning. So that is the next step after learning the forms and strokes first. 

So follow the theory and start the drills .  Keep doing it Daily and must go very slowly. Forget about using a pen and ink. Reserve that for a later day or after when you finish mastering/ perfecting   one page on continuous  repetition. Then when you are happy with your results go on to your book and do one line and do it with ink or pencil .  Leave  that line to monitor every time you  repeat  that same  page again and again  so you can see your progress by every line you do on your book . I did the same exercise. I had a photocopy and used a pencil . some times I reused the pages by erasing and rewriting. I still have many books to cover but I am doing self learning  and drilling on many other calligraphy styles. So I was( or am ) in no hurry to fill books or fill pages but I can see how my hand has progressed.  What I do is I goi into the books / My copied pages and do a page or too very slowly with more focus. So it gives me times to time to refresh my Muscle memories  and adding more to my free writing  movements.

The theory is very important read it over and over. I think writing spencerian is more to read books and learning instructions than just writing looking at the  there works.

When you read all older hand books , that is the first rule as the Line first any master on his leaning. Those reading will give you what is your first step of what to do and what not to do. That is because when you go up it it is very difficult to get rid of bad habits you learn while writing. So you have to learn it right and you get on easy while you progress. So good luck and share your writing samples once a while. 

 

I suggest you write your first writing sample and Mark the date before you go into  Practicing this Spencerian Books .  So that will help you to see your progress while continuing  your course and even one day after you have done all the books.

So share your writing samples  by posting to this thread itself. I think  lot of folks will come here to give you thumbs up one day.

Good luck. I am seriously into spencerian  and I have many plans to get to there. ( I like to stress  on using Dip pens rather on Fountain pens. There are PF that are great but once you are on to a certain level you will forget about  FPens and you'll only care about writing styles. That is exactly what happened to me. GOOD LUCK THEN.

 

[Irelaand]

3 hours ago, Inkyways said:

Before using the books Make every  book photocopied... and have them as loose leaves.

Then use a pencil. A mechanical .5 is the ideal. Don't use any thicker line In pencil or in Pens. ( If you use a pen always use an EF line. ) Japanese Ef is the ideal or F would do to see clear  Mistakes. Any medium wide line will hide all your mistake so you will fail in finding your minor mistakes to any larger ones) These books are  on  learning Spencerian hand but it is the  Business hand . So you don't need to know how to get thick shades from the beginning. So that is the next step after learning the forms and strokes first. 

So follow the theory and start the drills .  Keep doing it Daily and must go very slowly. Forget about using a pen and ink. Reserve that for a later day or after when you finish mastering/ perfecting   one page on continuous  repetition. Then when you are happy with your results go on to your book and do one line and do it with ink or pencil .  Leave  that line to monitor every time you  repeat  that same  page again and again  so you can see your progress by every line you do on your book . I did the same exercise. I had a photocopy and used a pencil . some times I reused the pages by erasing and rewriting. I still have many books to cover but I am doing self learning  and drilling on many other calligraphy styles. So I was( or am ) in no hurry to fill books or fill pages but I can see how my hand has progressed.  What I do is I goi into the books / My copied pages and do a page or too very slowly with more focus. So it gives me times to time to refresh my Muscle memories  and adding more to my free writing  movements.

The theory is very important read it over and over. I think writing spencerian is more to read books and learning instructions than just writing looking at the  there works.

When you read all older hand books , that is the first rule as the Line first any master on his leaning. Those reading will give you what is your first step of what to do and what not to do. That is because when you go up it it is very difficult to get rid of bad habits you learn while writing. So you have to learn it right and you get on easy while you progress. So good luck and share your writing samples once a while. 

 

I suggest you write your first writing sample and Mark the date before you go into  Practicing this Spencerian Books .  So that will help you to see your progress while continuing  your course and even one day after you have done all the books.

So share your writing samples  by posting to this thread itself. I think  lot of folks will come here to give you thumbs up one day.

Good luck. I am seriously into spencerian  and I have many plans to get to there. ( I like to stress  on using Dip pens rather on Fountain pens. There are PF that are great but once you are on to a certain level you will forget about  FPens and you'll only care about writing styles. That is exactly what happened to me. GOOD LUCK THEN.

 

Thank you so much for all this information! I think I will probably be using my F cross nib as I hate writing with pencil always grows too think and doesn’t do a quick fine line.

 

good idea! I will definitely photocopy some of the pages as I just started some of the basic strokes so far but I’ll continue soon! Although my straight lines is still very shaky for some reason but as I write faster it gets better.

 

I will definitely keep posting here thank you for the idea! And feel free if you would like to post any of your handwriting samples I would love to see!  Once I start these basic strokes down I’ll write my first sample. Although I think I’ll definitely stick with fountain pens my Montblancs are too special to me! And I love how they write 

 

Thanks, 

Max  

Edited October 16, 2023 by Irelaand

[Inkyways]

Hi Max @Irelaand I am posting some details  regarding my above Post and hope it will help you to understand my method of using those copy books.

 

 

This my third Note I did before going into Engrosser Script with flexible shading  I am still doing more gymnastic  on that now a days.  

 

I copied my books and started on 2017> You can see how they are horrible with a pen. IEvey I never recognise  I was 200% Wrong on doing that simple strokes.

 

 

I used a pen cil and sometimes I erased the page and re did it.

 

 

This is my formal writing now  and it is "pea nuts" to do it .

 

So good luck again and I want to see how you are doing with your coping books. This is serious job but need to have more patience !!1

 

[Penguincollector]

  I don’t write in the books themselves, but rather on loose leaf paper, usually with Séyès ruling printed on it for pens. If I am using pencil I use those primary school writing tablets with the dashed lines made with that newsprint like paper. I tend to use the spoon shaped and blue pumpkin dip pen nibs for this, but they can be hard to use if you’re not used to them. 
  @Inkyways, your writing is glorious! Your practice and dedication shows in each stroke. 

[Irelaand]

17 hours ago, Inkyways said:

Hi Max @Irelaand I am posting some details  regarding my above Post and hope it will help you to understand my method of using those copy books.

 

 

This my third Note I did before going into Engrosser Script with flexible shading  I am still doing more gymnastic  on that now a days.  

 

I copied my books and started on 2017> You can see how they are horrible with a pen. IEvey I never recognise  I was 200% Wrong on doing that simple strokes.

 

 

I used a pen cil and sometimes I erased the page and re did it.

 

 

This is my formal writing now  and it is "pea nuts" to do it .

 

So good luck again and I want to see how you are doing with your coping books. This is serious job but need to have more patience !!1

 

Woah! Your handwriting is beautiful, definitely something to aspire to! I appreciate your interest in my improvement very much so thank you  

 

I think that’s definitely a good idea with the photo copies so I might try that with the pages I haven’t yet started on, I’ll post a little bit of an update when I get through more of them but so far I’ve finished straight line and curved line strokes and starting on the letter “i”.

 

One question I have is the preference of pencil over pen? For me whenever I write I find the pencil constantly wearing down and it becomes quite the hassle rotating the pencil every stroke. 

[Irelaand]

17 hours ago, Penguincollector said:

  I don’t write in the books themselves, but rather on loose leaf paper, usually with Séyès ruling printed on it for pens. If I am using pencil I use those primary school writing tablets with the dashed lines made with that newsprint like paper. I tend to use the spoon shaped and blue pumpkin dip pen nibs for this, but they can be hard to use if you’re not used to them. 
  @Inkyways, your writing is glorious! Your practice and dedication shows in each stroke. 

Oh interesting maybe I’ll have a look into getting some loose sheets too maybe with the 52 degree slant when my writing gets a little more formulated.

 

Yes, I know that most people use dip pens but my Spencerian writing would be the main one used for school work although a much simpler style and then have the much more flourished one for personal use, so fountain pens I think are the best for me while still getting the best handwriting I can!  

Thanks, 

Max  

[Inkyways]

@Penguincollector thank you for your appreciations .  I use cheap quality papers for drills/practice and I use mechanical pencils . It is the best for calligraphy initiations .

I use walnut ink and all kind of pen nibs. I collect vintage nibs so I don't have any  problem about any nibs in the the vintage world.  My knowledge  is to use a nib that is suitable for a style of calligraphy. Example copperplate calligraphy you have to use a COPPERPLATE NIBS.

Italic  Calligraphy , YOU HAVE  USE A ITALIC NIB. Broad  edge Calligraphy you need a nib for Broad edge Its.

Spencerian you need a Nib for  spencerian  ( mostly copperplate nib can be used. But if you are a beginner  you have to learn spencerian with less shades which is called regular Spencerian. With minimum shades or no shades at all. "Zebra G" is the best as it is less flexible and not very fine and toothy.  Zebra G is favourite nib of Micheal Sull

 

Pumpkin nibs are very special. I love them and they are great for Modern calligraphy. They are different from Ultra flex nibs like Gillotts/ Hunt/ or Leonard Principle EF/ ( These nibs are good in the  mastered hands only)

Pumping nibs are good for Gauche and watercolour on cards etc.

@Irelaand

Those  nibs are not very good on any papers. They behave very differently / Bleeds and catch the nibs always and have many feed backs. So cheap papers are only used with pens . Pens like Japanese  Ef is the best.

My recommendation Pilot Metropolitan EF or F/ Keweko EF/ Sailor Ef or F/ Platinum 1198 F/  Lamy Ef is worth  looking at. I have many other in my collection . If you use  those pens you can use any Fountain pen ink and can use a low quality paper like I use . It is 70GSM WH Smith  refill pads / Rayman have one similar . When I use  dip pens I use Rhodia Pad / Oxford Campus refill pads  which is 90 GSM. 52º lines you can draw using a ruler. It is not a big deal. I basically don't use that any more  and my muscle memory knows how to lead my hand.   

Those 90 GSM  very smoother and no bleeding. Once you learn the basic strokes and shapes you can focus on styles and what pens you use.

Answer to your question.  Pencil. when you use a pencil you definitely have to turn the pencil round to get the consistency.  Those who use pencils  know that . In drawing  that is how you get thinner or thicker lines.  If you use a wood pencil it needs sharpening continuously  and it is not very practical. That is why a mechanical pencils come ideal for this practice. There are very thinner pencils 0.3mm is very sharpie but it cuts the paper through or  the led breaks often if your hands are not delicately soft.

For your information  there is a solution theres a special mechanical  Pencil that has a auto lead rotation , so you don't have to bother about rotation. It is a Japanese  pen called UNI Kuru .  By the way I collect mechanical  Vintage  Pens and pencils.

I love them. 

 

 

Using a pencil with rotation  makes your writing slower too and that is also a point of learning slowly  from the beginners to get the shapes and strokes right. CALLIGRAPHY IS A TYPE OF DRAWING LETTERS  AND IT IS A MEDITATIONS TOO. 

 

 best regards to you both  from London . Good luck and keep writing. 

Cyril.

[Irelaand]

2 hours ago, Inkyways said:

@Penguincollector thank you for your appreciations .  I use cheap quality papers for drills/practice and I use mechanical pencils . It is the best for calligraphy initiations .

I use walnut ink and all kind of pen nibs. I collect vintage nibs so I don't have any  problem about any nibs in the the vintage world.  My knowledge  is to use a nib that is suitable for a style of calligraphy. Example copperplate calligraphy you have to use a COPPERPLATE NIBS.

Italic  Calligraphy , YOU HAVE  USE A ITALIC NIB. Broad  edge Calligraphy you need a nib for Broad edge Its.

Spencerian you need a Nib for  spencerian  ( mostly copperplate nib can be used. But if you are a beginner  you have to learn spencerian with less shades which is called regular Spencerian. With minimum shades or no shades at all. "Zebra G" is the best as it is less flexible and not very fine and toothy.  Zebra G is favourite nib of Micheal Sull

 

Pumpkin nibs are very special. I love them and they are great for Modern calligraphy. They are different from Ultra flex nibs like Gillotts/ Hunt/ or Leonard Principle EF/ ( These nibs are good in the  mastered hands only)

Pumping nibs are good for Gauche and watercolour on cards etc.

@Irelaand

Those  nibs are not very good on any papers. They behave very differently / Bleeds and catch the nibs always and have many feed backs. So cheap papers are only used with pens . Pens like Japanese  Ef is the best.

My recommendation Pilot Metropolitan EF or F/ Keweko EF/ Sailor Ef or F/ Platinum 1198 F/  Lamy Ef is worth  looking at. I have many other in my collection . If you use  those pens you can use any Fountain pen ink and can use a low quality paper like I use . It is 70GSM WH Smith  refill pads / Rayman have one similar . When I use  dip pens I use Rhodia Pad / Oxford Campus refill pads  which is 90 GSM. 52º lines you can draw using a ruler. It is not a big deal. I basically don't use that any more  and my muscle memory knows how to lead my hand.   

Those 90 GSM  very smoother and no bleeding. Once you learn the basic strokes and shapes you can focus on styles and what pens you use.

Answer to your question.  Pencil. when you use a pencil you definitely have to turn the pencil round to get the consistency.  Those who use pencils  know that . In drawing  that is how you get thinner or thicker lines.  If you use a wood pencil it needs sharpening continuously  and it is not very practical. That is why a mechanical pencils come ideal for this practice. There are very thinner pencils 0.3mm is very sharpie but it cuts the paper through or  the led breaks often if your hands are not delicately soft.

For your information  there is a solution theres a special mechanical  Pencil that has a auto lead rotation , so you don't have to bother about rotation. It is a Japanese  pen called UNI Kuru .  By the way I collect mechanical  Vintage  Pens and pencils.

I love them. 

 

 

Using a pencil with rotation  makes your writing slower too and that is also a point of learning slowly  from the beginners to get the shapes and strokes right. CALLIGRAPHY IS A TYPE OF DRAWING LETTERS  AND IT IS A MEDITATIONS TOO. 

 

 best regards to you both  from London . Good luck and keep writing. 

Cyril.

Thank you Cyril! Yea one thing I’ve definitely noticed is with cheaper paper I’ve got to switch to a ballpoint or such but for my own writing I use a RHODIA composition book I believe thats 80 GSM and that’s quite the joy to write with, as far as inks go I’m quite happy with my smaller collection of just brows and blue blacks. They seem to work best for me. Dip pens would definitely be interesting for more calligraphy writing but as for no anyways Spencerian would be my everyday handwriting! 
 

Oh that is a good point I didn’t think about that, perhaps I’ll try it on my next sheet. Ah yes I’ve heard about one of those! Although they’re a little pricy but I do like some vintage style pencils I’ve seen, especially some of the older Montblanc ones. 
 

Thanks,

Max 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Irelaand

[Penguincollector]

@Inkyways you are so right, it is very much a meditation. I have a bunch of vintage dip nibs, and since their purchase is always random, my wont is to come home, research them, and then try the hand they are meant for. This approach is a bit backwards, but it lends variety. 
 

 P. S. Sorry if this makes no sense, I just woke up.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Penguincollector
Disclaimer

[Irelaand]

 

Finished the first few pages of the book, I switched to pencil like @Inkyways suggested and it’s going well! 
 

Thanks, 

Max 

[txomsy]

You are doing well, keep on!

[sisaymen]

Those Spencerian books look like a great find, and practicing handwriting with your girlfriend sounds like a fun way to bond! As for the best nibs, you've got some good options. The Montblanc OM nib with flex should work nicely for achieving those elegant Spencerian flourishes.
By the way, speaking of books, I recently stumbled upon all the Harry Potter books in order on Bookworm Era, and I've been enjoying revisiting the magical world of Hogwarts. As for me, it's a fantastic way to escape into a different realm for a while.

Edited February 6, 2024 by sisaymen

[Irelaand]

12 hours ago, sisaymen said:

Those Spencerian books look like a great find, and practicing handwriting with your girlfriend sounds like a fun way to bond! As for the best nibs, you've got some good options. The Montblanc OM nib with flex should work nicely for achieving those elegant Spencerian flourishes.
By the way, speaking of books, I recently stumbled upon all the Harry Potter books in order on Bookworm Era, and I've been enjoying revisiting the magical world of Hogwarts. As for me, it's a fantastic way to escape into a different realm for a while.

Yes I think they were! I got mine on Amazon definitely recommend them, So far I definitely agree the OM nib adds some of the flourishes needed in Spencerian (so long as you know how to write them…. That part I’m missing) 

Ah very interesting! Never read Harry Potter myself, might have to get on to that one.

 

Thanks,

Max