Dry Time Paradox - calling all scientists!

[lapis]

With my finger tip or with my knuckle ?

[LizEF]

5 hours ago, txomsy said:

Maybe if you hit it hard enough, the ink will finally permeate the paper and react with it

[wallylynn]

9 hours ago, txomsy said:

Maybe if you hit it hard enough, the ink will finally permeate the paper and react with it

somehow the black and blue permeated into my skin 🤔

[LizEF]

On 10/7/2023 at 8:02 AM, dipper said:

Both sheets below are no-name copy paper, about 70gsm. The sheet labelled "Damp Paper" was submerged in water for a few seconds, then dried on a towel until there was no visible surface wetness, and then laid onto a glass desktop. The sheet labelled "Dry Paper" was immediately laid in position. After one minute, when I could see that the right-hand half of the top sheet was swelling, I started to write the notes as seen below and did the timed smudge tests.

So, I tried this with a sheet of 20lb copy paper sacrificed to be the wet sheet and a sheet of Rhodia #16 out of the same pad I'm using for my reviews. The Rhodia started to curl as soon as it got close to the damp paper...

 

Well, the first test, before the Rhodia had been on very long showed faster dry times, but the second test, after the Rhodia page was getting pretty damp, showed considerably more smear than the dry side.  And the third test (done only on the damp side and immediately after taking it off the damp copy paper), showed about the same as the dry side...  This would suggest that a slight increase in humidity decreases dry time, whereas a significant increase in humidity extends dry time.  Now I'll do test four on the damp side, after the Rhodia has dried while I typed...  About the same as #3.  Maybe I'll wait several minutes and try one last time.  Same as the last two.  It seems there's too little humidity, too much humidity, and a narrow range of "just right"...

[LizEF]

Next step, trying @InesF's more complicated test.

[yazeh]

@LizEF Sorry to hear the first test was inconclusive. Though that's the nature of the beast and the inquisitive mind. Good luck with the 2nd experiment.  

 

[LizEF]

1 hour ago, yazeh said:

@LizEF Sorry to hear the first test was inconclusive. Though that's the nature of the beast and the inquisitive mind. Good luck with the 2nd experiment.  

 

Thank you!

[txomsy]

12 hours ago, LizEF said:

So, I tried this with a sheet of 20lb copy paper sacrificed to be the wet sheet and a sheet of Rhodia #16 out of the same pad I'm using for my reviews. The Rhodia started to curl as soon as it got close to the damp paper...

There might be possibly a difference in behavior depending on composition. That is probably why cotton paper is recommended for watercolor, but cellulose paper is not. Typically, watercolor is used as a wash, i.e., the paper should be damp before laying out the pigment to get the beautiful degradations.

 

Thus, before doing the test, I would first check the paper composition.

 

NB: not that I know much 'bout watercolors, I'm just starting; but that's the advice I see. Others with more experience may confirm or correct my previous interpretation.

[LizEF]

5 hours ago, txomsy said:

 

Thus, before doing the test, I would first check the paper composition.

Well, the point is to see whether "dry" time on Rhodia is impacted by the humidity level of the paper, so I kinda had to use the Rhodia.  The test Ines designed will be more controlled, I think.

[LizEF]

On 12/6/2023 at 2:32 PM, LizEF said:

Next step, trying @InesF's more complicated test.

Decided to switch that discussion here rather than continuing it in a thread that's for an ink review.

 

First test was done yesterday, and the results were the exact opposite of what was expected.  Only one ink was tested, but it "dried" much faster on the ambient paper than it did on the humidified paper.  I've been having a separate discussion with Ines, and more information will be available next week.  It seems that like ink flow, ink "stop smearing time" is a lot more complicated than it appears.  A transporter chief will be beaming us up before we figure out fountain pen ink!

[yazeh]

4 minutes ago, LizEF said:

Decided to switch that discussion here rather than continuing it in a thread that's for an ink review.

 

First test was done yesterday, and the results were the exact opposite of what was expected.  Only one ink was tested, but it "dried" much faster on the ambient paper than it did on the humidified paper.  I've been having a separate discussion with Ines, and more information will be available next week.  It seems that like ink flow, ink "stop smearing time" is a lot more complicated than it appears.  A transporter chief will be beaming us up before we figure out fountain pen ink!

Looking forward to more updates, Scotty  

[LizEF]

4 minutes ago, yazeh said:

Looking forward to more updates, Scotty  

[AceNinja]

I've a question regarding 'dry ink' that I've for sometime, this thread seems like an appropriate place to ask it.  So here goes.

 

When people / ink reviewer / common fountain pen user / lover says something like : it's a dry ink.

Do you normally interpreted it (without other context, just the word 'dry') as:

1. the ink flow is more restricted, it feels doesn't flow as well as most other inks.  Which means it typically lay down less ink, typically less feathery.  But it doesn't means ultra fast drying time on paper.  Works reasonably okay in crappy paper.
2. the ink quickly absorbs into paper as it touches paper, and therefore it dry very fast to the touch.  But it typically is more feathery, due it it's fast absorption, and is more prone to bleed through.  Works very badly in crappy paper.  (my 'badly' here means feather and bleed through, which is undesirable to me)

For myself, I'll normally interpret it as point no. 1.  Inks like Pelikan 4001 brilliant black, blue black.

 

[LizEF]

13 hours ago, AceNinja said:

I've a question regarding 'dry ink' that I've for sometime, this thread seems like an appropriate place to ask it.  So here goes.

 

When people / ink reviewer / common fountain pen user / lover says something like : it's a dry ink.

Do you normally interpreted it (without other context, just the word 'dry') as:

1. the ink flow is more restricted, it feels doesn't flow as well as most other inks.  Which means it typically lay down less ink, typically less feathery.  But it doesn't means ultra fast drying time on paper.  Works reasonably okay in crappy paper.
2. the ink quickly absorbs into paper as it touches paper, and therefore it dry very fast to the touch.  But it typically is more feathery, due it it's fast absorption, and is more prone to bleed through.  Works very badly in crappy paper.  (my 'badly' here means feather and bleed through, which is undesirable to me)

For myself, I'll normally interpret it as point no. 1.  Inks like Pelikan 4001 brilliant black, blue black.

 

I mean #1.  I always assume others mean #1, and that if they mean #2, they'll say something like, "It's a fast-drying ink."

 

Since @InesF's thread on ink wetness, I've assumed that wet inks would "dry" (meaning "not smear") faster and dry inks would stay "smearable" longer.  It's looking like (surprise, surprise) that's too simplistic an assumption.  (I'm fast becoming convinced that fountain pen ink is the most mysterious substance in the universe.)

[InesF]

6 hours ago, AceNinja said:

Do you normally interpreted it (without other context, just the word 'dry') as:

1. the ink flow is more restricted, it feels doesn't flow as well as most other inks.  Which means it typically lay down less ink, typically less feathery.  But it doesn't means ultra fast drying time on paper.  Works reasonably okay in crappy paper.
2. the ink quickly absorbs into paper as it touches paper, and therefore it dry very fast to the touch.  But it typically is more feathery, due it it's fast absorption, and is more prone to bleed through.  Works very badly in crappy paper.  (my 'badly' here means feather and bleed through, which is undesirable to me)

 

Yes, that are two different things and as it seems they are not directly related nor is it possible to extrapolate from one to the other!

New measurements are currently running and intermediate results point already towards something surprising.

Stay tuned, more news are expected during coming weekend.

 

5 hours ago, LizEF said:

I mean #1.  I always assume others mean #1, and that if they mean #2, they'll say something like, "It's a fast-drying ink."

 

Since @InesF's thread on ink wetness, I've assumed that wet inks would "dry" (meaning "not smear") faster and dry inks would stay "smearable" longer.  It's looking like (surprise, surprise) that's too simplistic an assumption.  (I'm fast becoming convince that fountain pen ink is the most mysterious substance in the universe.)

@AceNinja: @LizEF is already starting to differentiate as we try to find a new terminology. The terms "dry ink" and "wet ink" may not be accurate enough to explain what is meant. A revision of what is mentioned in the ink wetness thread will be required. However, it is not in the facts, it is in the terminology only! 🧑‍🎓

 

[yazeh]

@AceNinja for me a dry ink has a double signification, one is as opposed to a wet ink but often for me it means a lack of lubrication

 

[Claes]

Back in my calligraphy era,  we talked about "slow" vs "fast" inks,

as well as "slow" vs. "fast" paper qualities.

 

Other terms used were "short" vs. "long" binders.

 

Have fun!
Claes in Lund, Sweden

 

[InesF]

On 1/8/2024 at 1:13 PM, Claes said:

Back in my calligraphy era,  we talked about "slow" vs "fast" inks,

as well as "slow" vs. "fast" paper qualities.

 

Other terms used were "short" vs. "long" binders.

... and fast and slow set times ...  

[AceNinja]

On 1/8/2024 at 4:52 PM, InesF said:

The terms "dry ink" and "wet ink" may not be accurate enough to explain what is meant. A revision of what is mentioned in the ink wetness thread will be required. However, it is not in the facts, it is in the terminology only! 🧑‍🎓

 

Yup, because on the opposite end, when people say: "oh the ink is very wet!"

 

Do they really meant:

1. The ink is very flowly, like, large quantity of ink being lay down to paper very quick.

2. The ink seems slow to dry, and still smudges after a few hours, seems like it never dries, and therefore it is wet ink.

 

We need a standardized Dictionary just for fountain pen hobby!

[LizEF]

27 minutes ago, AceNinja said:

We need a standardized Dictionary just for fountain pen hobby!

Sounds nice, but then teenagers would just make up new words or use words to mean the opposite of what the dictionary says...