Dry Time Paradox - calling all scientists!

[arcfide]

2 hours ago, LizEF said:

Yes, but my issue was that my dry times for some inks are so much longer than other people's for the same inks.  In theory - or at least by intuition - my dry times ought to be faster.

 

In your specific case, i do think that you can chalk it up to humidity. Anyone who has worked with paper taken from a humid environment vs. one that has remained dry can attest to the increased rate of absorption for the "wet" paper. Even paper that was wetted down first, and then allowed to dry out will show more absorption in most of my tests. 

 

If you can get your paper to absorb ink faster, then the drying time, which is often just absorption time, will be faster. That's how most of the modern fast dry inks work, IIUC. 

[LizEF]

2 minutes ago, arcfide said:

In your specific case, i do think that you can chalk it up to humidity. Anyone who has worked with paper taken from a humid environment vs. one that has remained dry can attest to the increased rate of absorption for the "wet" paper. Even paper that was wetted down first, and then allowed to dry out will show more absorption in most of my tests. 

 

If you can get your paper to absorb ink faster, then the drying time, which is often just absorption time, will be faster. That's how most of the modern fast dry inks work, IIUC. 

[txomsy]

My take (and please, note I may be very well far off and totally wrong) on this is more related to surface tension.

 

TL;DR.

 

So, let us do a tiny bit of kitchen science (or even not that, just remember our kitchen experiences).

 

Let a drop of ink fall on the bench and measure its spread.

 

Let a drop of ink (so we can see what happens) fall on a transparent glass filled with water and observe its spread.

 

Which one travels faster and farther?

 

Now, that was easy, but crude...

 

So, repeat the experiment, this time using a drop of colored dish washing fluid on the bench, on water and on oil. What happens now?

 

I bet we all know and do not need to do it. So, let us now think of it.

 

Ink moves very fast in water. So, if it is laid down on a humid surface, it will spread faster over wherever is water. What is not so evident is what happens next.

 

The drop of ink on the bench has surface tension that keeps it "tight" and "deep", evaporation only occurs at the surface, so it will offer less surface and take very long to dry.

 

The drop of ink on water will not dry until all water has evaporated. But if it is laid down on humid paper?

 

Well, if the paper is soaked, then similarly the ink will not dry until all humidity has evaporated. But I'd bet most people won't write on soaked paper, although we may write on paper whose humidity is low enough to be acceptable at the tact as "dry". Ink there will spread also somewhat more (and deeper in the paper) than on a dry paper, and won't dry completely until all humidity disappears as well. But we assumed the humidity level was enough to be acceptable as "dry" to the touch, so it will not only spread, but dilute in the extant water until it is at the same "dryness" level. It won't be "totally dry", but will be "dry enough" to subjectively count as "dry". It penetrated deep, it might spread a tiny bit on the surface but we won't touch the part that soaked in diluting in the existing humidity.

 

Now, that was crude.

 

We all know ink has surfactants. Here comes the dishwashing fluid part.

 

On plain water it spreads like ink did, and we would get the former result. On a hydrophobic surface it will spread much, much faster and wider and only over the surface. On seized paper, an ink with surfactants may be expected to spread wider and faster, or to remain as a drop in the bench (depending on seizing).

 

If the "drop" laid is flatter (as dishwasher fluid on the surface of oil) and thinner, the water in the ink should "dry" quickly.

 

Surfactants also play a role by themselves: they may take longer to evaporate, maybe forever. Let us drop the detergent on a plane surface (like the kitchen bench) and wait. Do the same with water.

 

If we drop water, and then spread/smear it, it dries relatively fast. If we leave it as a drop, it takes much, much longer. But after one day it should have dried, maybe leaving behind a white lime mark.

 

If we drop dishwasher detergent, and we spread it, several days later the water part will have evaporated, but the surface will be still sticky. If, instead of spreading, we leave the drop as such, it will remain as a gummy, sticky spot for a very long time, potentially years until it starts looking like amber.

 

Did nobody notice that an insufficiently cleaned saucepan remains sticky? You need to use enough detergent, but also to remove all detergent with water.

 

But you cannot wash out the written lines with water until surfactants come out because if the colorant in the ink is not permanent, it will also wash out.

 

A line of ink on seized paper will do similar: depending on surfactant content it may spread more or less, the water part will evaporate faster or slower and leave behind the surfactants. Depending on the seizing, if the it spread on the surface, the surfactant will be a thin layer, if it didn't, it will be like a drop.

 

For highly saturated inks, depending on the coloring agent, a higher concentration of surfactants will be needed, and left behind after water evaporates. These will remain sticky for a very long time, more or less depending on how much it spread over the sizing.

 

That is why BP ink on plastic coated materials never dries and smears forever, not just plastic, shiny surface photos, some papers... and my guess is that it is similar for some inks.

 

Nothing most of us haven't experienced in our life many times at our kitchen or while cleaning. Maybe you are careful to always wash everything totally... re-washing with water after washing with the detergent until you do not leave any residuals behind. Well, there is a reason our parents told us to do it that way.

[LizEF]

Thank you, @txomsy!  I think you added some details that explain not only the difference in dry time between two different inks in the same environment, but also why sometimes an ink in my environment seems to behave the same as in other environments, while a second ink in my environment behaves very differently in another environment.

 

It's too bad I'm not filthy rich.  I could maintain a home in, say, Houston (cuz they have Dromgoole's) and my home here in the desert, keep the same supplies at each, but take my pen back and forth and do dry time testing.   If we had the ability to alter the space-time continuum, I could alter reality so that I've been doing that all along.

 

If nothing else, this is all the more reason for ink-researchers to consider many reviews and get samples!   And to know that other people's dry times are climate, paper, pen, and writing-style dependent!

 

[dipper]

Here is a quick and simple test that you can try, if you live in a desert, to explore the idea that ink may "dry" in less time on paper that has a larger water content than it does on crispy-dry paper. "Dry" is in quotes here, meaning "smudge free when rubbed with a fingertip".

 

Unfortunately the test sample below was done here in the damp UK today in autumn. 60% Relative Humidity is typical conditions here.  So I am testing fairly damp paper against very damp paper. But if you live in sub 20% Relative Humidity then the left-hand half of the test sheet could well show a significant difference in dry times. Some difference between the left and right halves of the test sheet is all that we need to observe, as an initial support of @LizEF's idea.

 

Both sheets below are no-name copy paper, about 70gsm. The sheet labelled "Damp Paper" was submerged in water for a few seconds, then dried on a towel until there was no visible surface wetness, and then laid onto a glass desktop. The sheet labelled "Dry Paper" was immediately laid in position. After one minute, when I could see that the right-hand half of the top sheet was swelling, I started to write the notes as seen below and did the timed smudge tests.

 

[LizEF]

Thanks, @dipper!  That seems like a better option than anything I came up with.  I'll give it a try later on and see how the results come out.

[txomsy]

Depending on esthetics preferences...

 

A Havana cigar humidor with individualized trays can make for a great pen display... and can also be used to maintain a controlled degree of humidity. Not that I know for certain, I do not have that many pens, nor do I want to show them, nor would I have space to put it in (and currently not even the cash to shell out for one).

 

Just an idea. Maybe someone has one and can (and wants to) do the test.

 

[LizEF]

5 hours ago, txomsy said:

Depending on esthetics preferences...

 

A Havana cigar humidor with individualized trays can make for a great pen display... and can also be used to maintain a controlled degree of humidity. Not that I know for certain, I do not have that many pens, nor do I want to show them, nor would I have space to put it in (and currently not even the cash to shell out for one).

 

Just an idea. Maybe someone has one and can (and wants to) do the test.

 

Well, you would have to say this.  I was gifted a very nice 1950s Kaweco Dia that has a cork piston.  Despite having it replaced by Ron, it has dried out again (family emergency sent me away and it didn't get used for a long time).  I was considering passing it on to someone in a more humid environment, but if I got one of these, maybe I could keep it... Hmm.  Will have to price mini humidors...

[Bo Bo Olson]

4 minutes ago, LizEF said:

cigar humidor with individualized trays

Need the trays......been saying that for a very long time. Ever since I got these. The big one is walnut, the small one is ceder lined burl vernier.

Anyone got a link to the trays.

 

[PJohnP]

2 hours ago, LizEF said:

Well, you would have to say this.  I was gifted a very nice 1950s Kaweco Dia that has a cork piston.  Despite having it replaced by Ron, it has dried out again (family emergency sent me away and it didn't get used for a long time).  I was considering passing it on to someone in a more humid environment, but if I got one of these, maybe I could keep it... Hmm.  Will have to price mini humidors...

 

Quick comment here - consider aesthetics and functionality both.

 

One can take a rubbermaid/tupperwear container that seals reasonably well along with a simple homemade device to provide humidity to provide a moist environment.  It's by no means "pretty" but it's functional.  It can in fact become too humid because of tight seals, which is a different issue.

 

If one keeps their eyes open at garage sales and flea markets, humidors pop up regularly (I believe that I saw one yesterday at a flea market near where I live).  The condition of a wooden humidor may require some effort to address, although many times a thorough cleaning and some wood treatments will suffice for a presentable item.

 

But.

 

Humidors, whether beautiful or just functional, require that the water supply be regularly checked to ensure that the conditions remain "moist".  A lot will obviously depend on the ambient environmental conditions for how long a period can be tolerated.  It's very much akin in terms of consistency to checking on pens filled with ink to ensure that they do not dry out.

 

 

 

John P.

[LizEF]

41 minutes ago, PJohnP said:

Quick comment here - consider aesthetics and functionality both.

Thanks, John!    Will keep all that in mind.

[PJohnP]

30 minutes ago, LizEF said:

Thanks, John!    Will keep all that in mind.

 

 

You are most welcome.

 

Do be aware that setting up a humidor is almost as complicated as some of our ink recipes and adulterations under discussion in this sub-forum...  There are deep rabbit holes to go down into related to how the water is contained, hygrometers (which are very different than soil humidity meters), etc.  If you can find a decent quality pre-made or vintage humidor at a reasonable price, that might be an easier alternative.

 

Reading your (most excellent and in-depth) reviews, I'm pretty confident that you have the technical skills to develop your own humidor.  Wanting to expend that effort is another matter.  <warm smile>

 

 

John P.

[LizEF]

1 hour ago, PJohnP said:

Wanting to expend that effort is another matter. 

Exactly. Thank you!

[Bo Bo Olson]

1 hour ago, PJohnP said:

Do be aware that setting up a humidor is almost as complicated as some of our ink recipes and adulterations

Ah...HA!...good think I don't think I need to moisturize the gizmo in the middle of the top of the humidore....just for pens???

[WalterC]

I live in a place with varying humidity (Massachusetts). In summer it can be rather humid and this summer was often very humid. 100% humidity happens sometimes, though thankfully not when the temp was approaching 100F (37.7C). In winter the night time temps go below 0F (-18C); the coldest last winter was -20F (-29C). Since houses are heated to comfortable levels, the winter humidity inside can be very very low, often below 10% and on the coldest days 3%. So the experiment can be run over the course of a year or two by most of us in the north. I am not volunteering.

[PJohnP]

58 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Ah...HA!...good think I don't think I need to moisturize the gizmo in the middle of the top of the humidore....just for pens???

 

 

Long chuckle.

 

I think that LizEF was going to use this device to keep the cork adequately wetted in her "1950s Kaweco Dia", not trying to keep the pen's body moist.

 

if she were discussing a casein contribution pen body, I would, of course, counsel against the moisture.  Casein doesn't cope well long soaking effects (although I've never run a test).

 

With my Pelikan pen cork piston seals, I used to fill them with water for a few days, then decant the residual.  I'm a bit unsure how well storing for longer times with water would work, but then, ink kept in pens is mostly water.

 

 

 

John P.

[PJohnP]

14 minutes ago, WalterC said:

I live in a place with varying humidity (Massachusetts). In summer it can be rather humid and this summer was often very humid. 100% humidity happens sometimes, though thankfully not when the temp was approaching 100F (37.7C). In winter the night time temps go below 0F (-18C); the coldest last winter was -20F (-29C). Since houses are heated to comfortable levels, the winter humidity inside can be very very low, often below 10% and on the coldest days 3%. So the experiment can be run over the course of a year or two by most of us in the north. I am not volunteering.

 

Living in the US Southwest, single digit humidity is a frequent event.  I learned early on that "Moisturiser is a man's skin's best friend."

 

 

John P.

[Bo Bo Olson]

32 minutes ago, PJohnP said:

With my Pelikan pen cork piston seals, I used to fill them with water for a few days, then decant the residual.  I'm a bit unsure how well storing for longer times with water would work, but then, ink kept in pens is mostly water.

When Zombieing a dead cork, 3-5 days is not enough, from my experience. A week to 10 days would be better.

 

Then sooner than later you will need someone how knows how to boil the cork  in mineral oil and beeswax and then slather it with silicon grease.

I use Francis for that but there must be good repairmen in the States, who will go the extra steps to do it in properly prepared cork.

 

That is the smoothest of the gaskets, according to  'Pen Repair'' by Marshall and Oldfield.

 

What Pelikan do you have that has a cork? A 100?

 

I'm not sure but think it was '38 when Pelikan went away from cork to plastic gasket 1.0.

1955 up graded to Plastic Gasket 2.0 which is what is still used and still good. I trust that to be still good to go. One reads more of Plastic Gasket 1.0 dying, not the 2.0.

[wallylynn]

On 10/6/2023 at 2:50 AM, txomsy said:

That is why BP ink on plastic coated materials never dries and smears forever,

I discovered that my finger tip will always smear. Now I test with my knuckle.

[txomsy]

Maybe if you hit it hard enough, the ink will finally permeate the paper and react with it