Why thin pens?

[rokurinpapa]

I happened to try Cross pens and I am becoming a lover of them.

By the way, Cross seems to be strong in making thin pens. Americans have big hands generally. Why did Cross decide to make thin pens?

[txomsy]

Thin or thick has little to do with hands, but with grip and preferences.

 

For over a thousand years, most people wrote with feather dip pens, ultra-light and ultra-slim. And it was not a problem.

 

Actually, I think the question would probably have been (way back when) why use a fountain pen, that was so thick and heavy (compared to what everybody was used to), if not for just the convenience of carrying the ink within it.

 

I'd guess at the beginning having a permanent supply of ink probably was not seen as a big advantage since everybody was used to dipping their pens. Cleanness probably neither, as the first pens -and for a long time- spilled ink and would be more likely to stain your hand when uncapping than writing with a dip pen if you were used to be careful (no way to be careful when uncapping an ink flooded cap). You could get feathers by the score for small change and tune them to your taste, and a feather could be re-cut (not just sharpened) many times, obtaining more flexibility (not just physical, also in shape) and used for a long time. And not having ink in, a feather would not spill in your pocket once wiped dry. Nor would the cap unscrew and the nib poke a hole.

 

They were heavy (easily 100x a feather) which would tire everyone's hand, thick (easily 10x a feather) which would make gripping "unnatural", dirty (were almost sure to stain your fingers and very likely to stain your clothes)... their only advantage was you didn't need to carry an inkwell, bottle and stand for them.

 

And actually, kids would learn to write with dip pens as late as the end of the 1950's/early 1960's in school -at least in most of Europe. My wooden desk in primary school had holes for the (inverted hat-shaped metal) inkwells (two kids would share a table) and elongated depressions for the dip pens. I remember how we looked forward to the day we would be allowed to learn to write without a pencil as an early "passage ritual". And I've seen similar old desks all over Europe in antiquary shops.

 

I can understand that from an "Eastern Asian" point of view, where people used wooden brushes, these drawbacks would likely be almost non-existent, meaningless, FPs would seem more natural/familiar, and their main drawback would have been their comparative "stiffness" compared to a brush.

 

From a "Western Asian" point of view, where calami were common, it probably was all advantages as well. But from an "European/American" point of view it must have been a curse in most circumstances. As suggested by Mark Twain's statement about fountain pens: “None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain-pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try.”

 

From a personal point of view, I had a ultra-slim FP (about 5mm thick, maybe less in the grip) that shared with a slim Montblanc Slimline my preferred writing utensil status for almost 20 years (until the metal ring at the end of the section broke and the feeder/nib wouldn't stay put, which didn't happen to the all-metal MB). I do also have big hands. But it forced (or eased) me to use a lighter grip, write lighter and faster, tire less and improve my fine motor skills.

 

After that one passed away, I have been on the lookout for both, all metal (like the Kaweco AL or Brass Sports) and slim pens (like the Aurora Hastil -thinner than the MB Slimline- or the Kaweco Copper Liliput).

 

But notice, I do also use thick (like large piston fillers), heavy pens (like the Kaweco Brass Sport) without any concern. Love them too. Yet, I tend to reach more often for the thinner ones (like the Liliput or the Hastil).

 

My impression is that if everybody would write with feathers for over a millenium, everybody can get used to ultra-light, ultra-thin pens. Whether one wants to, however, is a matter of personal preference (and in some cases, physiological conditions).

[rokurinpapa]

Thank you for your detailed and thought-provoking answer. I never thought of dip pens and I was deeply spurred by your opinion. But I think the question remains.

Why didn't Montblanc or Pelikan make such thin pens as Classic Century as main products?

 

[txomsy]

The Montblanc Slimline and Noblesse were indeed slim pens. It is only a matter of digging a bit and one will soon find all sorts of options (thick and thin) in most pen makers.

 

Whether an option continues is a matter of fashion or trends. I suppose that in the 70's-90's the trend to minimalism, discretion and non-pretentiousness (in the 70's-80's showing off was considered in bad taste, and brand logos tended to become even smaller) favored the presence of slim, Bauhaus, minimalist lines in most makers. With the decay of writing, for many a fountain pen has become a status symbol to be displayed and so I suspect the main demand for "luxury" pens is now for big, conspicuous, gaudy products (compare the minimal logos of e.g. Levi's, Lacoste, Ralph Lauren or Tommy Hilfiger of those years which would take scarcely 1-2 cm2 at most, and even that was considered excessive, with modern logos which occupy the whole product surface).

 

If you want to show off, a huge pen with a huge logo and a gaudy design is best. If you want functionality that passes unnoticed -safe to those really in the know- then slim, simple, subdued design, tiny logos, lightweight, functional, is best. An MB 342G is a thin beauty, black, streamlined, discrete -yet with a white star logo over shiny black, noticeable but not much, and was in production for two or three decades. The MB Slimline/Noblesse were simplicity at its height, and were in production for three, almost four decades. Now, it is one new Limited Edition at least every year, each one more expensive and baroque (with honorable exceptions in the baroque, not in price, and the 146/159 which seem to never die). I suppose it is a sign of the times.

 

On Pelikan you have the m200, which is quite slim. And non-piston fillers in a large number of designs. On Lamy the Logo and CP.1 for instance. Kaweco has the Liliput. Sheaffer the Targa, Aurora had the Hastil, the Marco Polo, etc... you just need to look around.

 

Consumerism demands showing off. Functionality follows other criteria. It all depends on what one seeks. When one wants long writing sessions, lightness -for instance- can become a bonus quickly. When all you want is to sign, weight and heft may be preferable. But it not simply a matter of hand size.

 

[inkstainedruth]

I have small hands, so smaller, lighter-weight pens are better for me.  But over the years the weight limit comfort level has increased to some extent.  

My largest pen is a vintage Sheaffer Balance Oversize, which had belonged to my husband's grandfather.  It is surprisingly lightweight and comfortable for me to use, in spite of it's girth and length (and I'm someone who almost always posts the cap on pens).

But I also started with really skinny pens (my first "good" fountain pen was a Parker Vector, and while I would NOT want to try writing "the Great American Novel" with one, I like them for being inexpensive pens which come in a huge array of colors and often with fun designs (when I saw one on eBay a few years ago, from a vendor I'd bought from before, that was "Puss in Boots" from the Shrek movies?  I started laughing and said "OMG -- I must HAVE that pen!"  

@txomsy The comparison between the size of small fountain pens and the handles on dip pens is an interesting one, and one I wouldn't have really considered, even though I've used dip pens in the past for calligraphy classes.  So thanks for bringing that into the discussion.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[InesF]

Wise words here, @txomsy!

I used a Cross Botanica for some years as one of two fountain pens and never had any problem because of size, weight or grip diameter. The (many) years before I wrote with a Waterman Maestro (also comparably slim) and used some ballpoint pens in parallel. The advantage was: ballpoint and fountain pen had similar diameters.

 

Now I have an assemblage of 33 fountain pens, slim and girthy. While I like the girthy as well, I always prefer the slim pens. My hands are comparably big (long fingers) and even the pens with slim grips fit well without fatigue during long writing sessions.

 

I guess it is a matter of individual preference and habit.

A good sign that some manufacturers still produce slim pens!

[Karmachanic]

Why?  People purchase them.

[rokurinpapa]

Dear txomsy

Your discussion about fashion or trends is very interesting. You have abundant knowledge and good sharp taste. Furthermore you must be a kind person who can exert all possible efforts for various theme. 

Dear all,

 I am a beginner about Cross pens. So I may not understand the common knowledge among Cross fountain pen lovers, and I feel that we seem to be talking at cross-purposes. 

Off course, many pen brands have made thin pens,but generally speaking, what pens come to mind at the brand as main products, Montblanc, Pelikan,Parker, Pilot, ... ...perhaps 146 or 149, M400 or M800, Sonnet or Duofold, Custom series..., in case of Cross, Century or Townsend, not Peerless in my opinion. So I  think that Cross places focus on making thin pens persistently and this is their area of expertise. This must be a distinguishing trait of Cross and their identity, I believe. If it is true, I would like to know the reason as a person who has almost become a Cross enthusiast.

 

rokurinpapa

[txomsy]

Thanks for your kind words @rokurinpapa. I don't consider myself specially kind, tasteful or knowledgeable (and my wife will attest to my not being any of those), so your words are greatly appreciated.

 

I agree with you, and I think the differences are based on marketing/benefit strategies. There is a show-off market that will pay huge prices for clearly visible branding nowadays, leaving a huge margin per sale, which is very attractive to marketing departments and may explain, both the insistence on those products by some brands and the perception of those products as reference (they're made to show off).

 

It reminds me of an almost "breaking point" for IBM: when they made the PC, it could compete with their super- and mini- computers, which had a huge profit margin, so sales forces would not tout the PC where their benefits would be lower. That opened the market for clones. And the rest is history, IBM was ultimately led out of the PC-compatible market they themselves created. Sometimes, short-term benefits take over (and brands aim for higher margins, huge, shiny, gaudy pens) abandoning mass markets with smaller per-item margins but potentially larger cumulative profits.

 

But that's for directives to decide. Customers' buying vote seems to play very little when these strategies are defined.

[ballboy]

I started off with a Parker25 in school; might explain why it's still my favourite after all the other pens I've been through ☺️

[inkstainedruth]

My first "good" pen was a Parker Vector (after a couple of cheapie Parker Reflexes, where the rubber disintegrated off the section).  So, I'm used to thin, lightweight pens.  

While I would not want to write "the Great American Novel" with a Vector, they are good little workhorse pens, and come in a lot of fun colors and designs.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[langere]

I like both thin and thick pens. Each pen has its own writing characteristics and so one of the fun parts of using my (continually expanding) pen collection is to learn and then to savor the girth of each pen, as well as its nib, whether it is better posted or not and, of course, its color and its shape.

 

For me, I can afford many pens and I enjoy each one precisely for its difference with the others.

 

Erick

[ParramattaPaul]

I have a metal Kaweco Special.  It is the same diameter as a (wooden) pencil. It is actually nice to write with despite being much thinner than Onoto or Conway Stewart pens I usually use.  In fact, I honestly have to say that I may actually prefer using than I do a 'chubby' CS Churchill.  Can a pent be too thin or thick for an individual?  I think it can.

[Penguincollector]

I write mostly with thinner pens. I have a burgeoning Century I/II collection, having used them since high school a long time ago. I love that there’s some current pens that aren’t so girthy, as I need to hold my pen between my fingers for support.

[kestrel]

5 hours ago, langere said:

I like both thin and thick pens. Each pen has its own writing characteristics and so one of the fun parts of using my (continually expanding) pen collection is to learn and then to savor the girth of each pen, as well as its nib, whether it is better posted or not and, of course, its color and its shape.

 

Erick

My first nice pen was an Elysee, slender with heft and perfect balance for my hand.  Then a first generation Sonnet.  I liked both for different reasons.  With arthritic hands my favorite pens have to feel comfortable for long stretches.  Sometimes a slender pen feels best and sometimes a pen with substantial girth.  My rotation right now includes my favorite pen, a Pelikan M800, its vintage counterpart Conklin Crescent 50, a very slender nameless combo, and an almost as slender Grieshaber hump filler. 

I agree with @txomsy about the early pens and slender size/low weight.  The vast majority of the pre WWI pens I have seen are very slender.  I suspect sizes began to creep up when ink capacity became important to some users.  That was facilitated (I think) by both the invention of the safety pen (fewer leaks) and the development of the sac pen because the sac provided an added layer of insulation between air in pen and body heat of hand which would have decreased the likelihood of burps and blots, allowing larger pens with larger air pockets as the ink was used up.

 

The three fountain pen brands Mark Twain used between the late 1870s and his death in 1910 all had diameters no larger than a standard pencil.  The MacKinnon stylograph he endorsed (and roundly cussed at) was only 8.5 mm in diameter and about 125 mm long

[es9]

The trend in the 20th century—at least with Parker and Sheaffer—seems to have been a general move from fatter to thinner and more streamlined pens. There are exceptions along the way, of course. But think about the move from the flat top to the balance to the triumphs/fat TD to the TM and the snorkel, imperial, targa, etc. Or the move from big duofolds to streamline duofolds to vacumatics to the 51/61, 45, etc. 

 

I’ve always assumed at a few factors drove this. First, people were carrying these things around in pockets. A smaller, less bulky pen would probably make daily use easier. Second, it was technologically more impressive to be able to make something smaller. I think it was kind of similar with watches. 
 

The Sheaffer TM is actually a really good example. The pen is functionally the same as the Fat TD, and yet we got a new, thinner model. Look at the discussion of the ads here; the focus is on things like comfort/convenience and technical advancements. By contrast, the PFM—a big pen blip along the general trend—was reportedly not a great seller at the time. 

[jchch1950]

Fothy years ago the MB 149 was one of the bigger pens around, now they are even bigger and made by many brands. Maybe the reason is the same as in the twenties: they show around other people that they use such writing instruments.

[rokurinpapa]

Thank you all for productive and substantial discussions. I enjoy the sea of fertile about fountain pens world.

 

rokurinpapa

[amper]

On 9/20/2023 at 11:14 PM, rokurinpapa said:

Americans have big hands generally.

You might not have noticed this, but "America" is literally the most diverse nation on Earth and in the history of human civilization, itself. There is a very wide variety of hand sizes, and the Cross Century was the most popular premium pen in the US for decades. Cross' history of success tends to say to me that most people don't have a problem holding onto their pens, and there's a reason why pencils haven't much changed in size. Only very young children use oversized pencils or crayons. By the time we reach elementary school, we use standard sized writing instruments.

[rokurinpapa]

8 hours ago, amper said:

You might not have noticed this, but "America" is literally the most diverse nation on Earth and in the history of human civilization, itself. There is a very wide variety of hand sizes, and the Cross Century was the most popular premium pen in the US for decades. Cross' history of success tends to say to me that most people don't have a problem holding onto their pens, and there's a reason why pencils haven't much changed in size. Only very young children use oversized pencils or crayons. By the time we reach elementary school, we use standard sized writing instruments.

Thanks to you, I realized my superficial understanding and diversity of America, furthermore  I can pay more attention to the size of pencils that most people(perhaps not only Americans but also rest of all over the world?)use. I remembered that Cross produced pencil holders originally.