Strong Antiseptic Smell from Ink?

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

Hi all, just got a new (old) pen that I restored recently and I noticed the ink window had some little spots after inking. I wasn't sure if I just didn't clean it out thoroughly or it may have been mold. The nib does not smell good, let me tell you that.

 

Next course of action was to sniff the Waterman Serenity Blue bottle. It had some very small specs of dust floating in it but nothing that looks definitively like mold to me. But it has a very very strong antiseptic smell I haven't noticed with my other bottles. I am not good at describing smells but I would say the best way I can describe it is the smell of a hospital. Anyone know if this is problematic?

 

Second part of this question - if it is, is it a bad idea to use vinegar to flush out the vintage sac-based pen I had the ink in last? I know ammonia is recommended but I do not have any on hand.

 

 

[inkstainedruth]

You only really want to use a vinegar flush if the previous ink had been an iron gall ink (which are very acidic/low pH); using ammonia solution is better most of the time because most inks are either pH neutral or have a high pH.  

As for the smell you describe, I suspect that what you may be smelling is something to PREVENT mold, but can't guarantee that.  (Photos of what you're seeing might help diagnosing the issue.)

Either way, you don't want to use straight ammonia or straight vinegar.  The formula I learned was 9:1 (nine parts water -- I use distilled water because where I live the tap water is very hard, i.e., has a high mineral content -- to one part EITHER household white vinegar or one part clear ammonia).  If you're in the US, you should be able to find EITHER in a grocery store in big jugs (since you only use a little bit at a time, it will last a long time).  A drop or two of something like Dawn dish detergent also helps (get the standard blue stuff).  

Also, either way, you'll want to flush with water both before and after using the flush.  (There was a guy on here a while back who was a chemist, and he said that using ammonia solution AFTER using the vinegar solution -- with of course flushing with water in between -- is also a good trick.

When I need to flush a pen out, I sort of eyeball the ratio (I'm only mixing up a little at a time) and let the pen soak nib and feed down in the mix, and sometimes have to also take a dedicated soft bristle toothbrush to scrub any caked-on ink as well.  I use a $1 clear votive candle holder with straight sides, and then when I've got all the ink out and flush really well with water, I dry the pen nib down into paper toweling in another cheapie votive candle holder.

Hope this helps.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

I am probably being overly cautious but I threw the bottle out. I had an unopened bottle that I compared with, and the other one had no scent at all. I am still not sure it's mold but I figure better not to risk it over a $10 bottle of ink that I already used half of.

[inkstainedruth]

Yeah, you might be safer in the long run.

If it had been an expensive ink, I might have tried to salvage it (I know that some people have added stuff that kills mold spores, but I don't know how to get hold of that.).  

I did throw out a bottle of vintage ink, Sanford Pen-It, Blue Black (which I think was an iron gall ink) because it destroyed the sac in a Con-B converter in one of my Pilot Metropolitans.  OTOH, I only paid a buck for it IIRC....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Ron Z]

13 minutes ago, inkstainedruth said:

(I know that some people have added stuff that kills mold spores, but I don't know how to get hold of that.).  

 

Phenol is used to kill mold.  You can find it here.

 

To kill mold in pens, we use Shaklee Basic G.  Available on Amazon.

 

 

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

10 minutes ago, Ron Z said:

 

Phenol is used to kill mold.  You can find it here.

 

To kill mold in pens, we use Shaklee Basic G.  Available on Amazon.

 

 

 

I will save those links, should probably get that in the long run. For the short term, if I am worried about a pen having mold, what is a safe amount of time to soak the section in a solution of ammonia and dish soap to kill the mold? I left it in for around 20-30min and really didn't want to leave it in longer for fear of damaging the celluloid somehow.

 

I am not entirely sure it is mold, I went around sniffing all the recent pens I inked and they seem fine. I am thinking it might have just been dried up old ink particulate that was particularly stinky. No clue why the bottle smelled so bad but there were no visible signs of mold in it so it may have been something else.

 

I flushed it quite a bit and thought it was clean but I didn't knock out the nib and feed since it's one of those "reinforced" Wearever gold nibs and it seemed particularly fragile. But as soon as I put it in the ammonia cleaning solution (the recommended formula, might have done a touch more ammonia though, just eyeballed it), green gunk started coming out of it.

 

[lapis]

I would have chucked out that ink, too. The smell was probably phenol. So far, so good. That has been used -- of all things -- as an antiseptic for over 150 years. Many of us add small concentrations of it to ink so that they don't mold. Over and above that (possibly) you can always use that credo we used to use during medical scientific research: "If in doubt, discard". I think that was originally coined in the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in NY City.

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

The confusing part for me is that the other bottles of Waterman Serenity Blue did not smell like that, so I am a little confused. I'll just keep an eye on my pens I guess. And a little bit ammonia wash never hurt a pen.

 

I finally bought some so I think I'll use that as my cleaning routine whenever I get a new old pen now. Even if there's no mold, I'll get a much more thorough clean.

[es9]

1 hour ago, LoveBigPensAndCannotLie said:

And a little bit ammonia wash never hurt a pen.

That’s what you think! See here and, for more detail, here.
 

(I’m not saying that I think ammonia has no place in pen cleaning. Rather, I’m just pointing out that some folks who know an awful lot have pointed out some risks to be aware of.) 

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

Hmm, is there any risk in soaking for 10-15 minutes? I just soaked two other pens I'm in the process of restoring and now I'm worried I've compromised the nibs...

[es9]

What’s the pen? I think twice before running a section with a nib still installed—assuming it’s held wedged into the section such that there’s stress on the nib rather than threaded onto a collar—through the ultrasonic in an ammonia solution. That really forces ammonia into all the nooks and crannies. But I personally wouldn’t worry about soaking for that length of time. I always make sure to flush extensively with water in an ultrasonic after.

 

I tend to think it’s all about balance. Ammonia is pretty important to cleaning pens, and I don’t think it’s realistic to avoid it entirely. It’s just good to know all the facts so you can minimize risk where possible. 

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

I don't have or use an ultrasonic. I just flushed it a few times in the ammonia solution and left it standing nib down up to the section for 10-15 min. For the Wearever pen I think more like 20-30 min. That's with a sac on. I did flush a section with a bulb syringe which is kinda high pressure?

 

For each of these I flushed them thoroughly with cold clean water afterwards. I'm actually still soaking the Wearever pen just in case, since it was in the ammonia for an extended period of time.

 

Edit: This is for another conversation but after reading that article, I am a little curious about something. I posted a while ago about how I've seen a significant number of late 1920's/early 1930's Parker nibs with heel cracks as opposed to other brands. I wonder if they used a slightly different alloy of gold or the way they seated their nibs caused more stress and as a result more stress corrosion. Or maybe early Quink ink was more corrosive than other brands...

[es9]

I think you’re probably fine—especially with a Wearever with a framed nib since the gold wouldn’t be under a lot of stress. Though an ultrasonic is a very worthwhile investment. They’re not that expensive and you’d be surprised how much can be accomplished with water alone. I often don’t even need ammonia; water, brushes, and some cotton swabs are often enough. 

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

12 minutes ago, es9 said:

I think you’re probably fine—especially with a Wearever with a framed nib since the gold wouldn’t be under a lot of stress. Though an ultrasonic is a very worthwhile investment. They’re not that expensive and you’d be surprised how much can be accomplished with water alone. I often don’t even need ammonia; water, brushes, and some cotton swabs are often enough. 

 

Well, the other one was a 1930's Parker section... that one I am a little more worried about. Especially since I've seen so many with heel cracks. It's not a particularly rare pen or nib though. Oh and a Taperite...

 

I've been tempted to get one but I am really running out space. I know they're small but I don't have a lot of space at my place. I generally don't use ammonia, this is literally the first time I've used it, and more so for the mold killing properties than for cleaning. I find that Dawn soap and a bulb syringe is more than enough most of the time. 

 

It would be handy if I had one for getting ink out of caps. I think that's the part I have the hardest time cleaning, there is always so much dried up ink stuck in the crevice between the inner cap and the cap and it's impossible to properly clean. I would guess that an ultrasonic would do a great job on that. Probably wouldn't use it on nibs and sections though.

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

One more question, is it safe to use ammonia pen flush on aerometric Parker 51's? Those are always a pain to thoroughly clean without disassembling the hood.

[es9]

Others may disagree, but I wouldn’t be too concerned. The nibs aren’t under inordinate pressure when installed and don’t taper down towards the tail.
 

That said, I usually take the hood off a 51 aero when I first get it. I don’t personally agree with others that a simple flush is all that’s indicated. A lot of dried up crud can get left behind. Pulling the shell isn’t really a big deal. The lucite can take more heat than celluloid, and you don’t need to remove anything else. No need to fiddle around with nib/shell alignment.
 

Just flush with water a few times to soften things up, heat the spot where the shell threads on, and gently unscrew. I don’t even usually need section pliers. Then I put the pen without the shell installed in a small cup of water up to the connector (below the sac guard joint), put that cup in an ultrasonic, and run it for 180 seconds. Repeat if necessary. While the collector might still be a little stained, you’ll get things pretty darn clean. Let it all dry and—assuming there are no issues with the pen like a corroded breather tube—screw the shell back on with a little rosin-based thread sealant or shellac. It should be good to go.
 

I get that a 51 will often put ink on a page with nothing more than a flush. But I don’t just want it to write; I want it to write well.

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

16 hours ago, es9 said:

Others may disagree, but I wouldn’t be too concerned. The nibs aren’t under inordinate pressure when installed and don’t taper down towards the tail.
 

That said, I usually take the hood off a 51 aero when I first get it. I don’t personally agree with others that a simple flush is all that’s indicated. A lot of dried up crud can get left behind. Pulling the shell isn’t really a big deal. The lucite can take more heat than celluloid, and you don’t need to remove anything else. No need to fiddle around with nib/shell alignment.
 

Just flush with water a few times to soften things up, heat the spot where the shell threads on, and gently unscrew. I don’t even usually need section pliers. Then I put the pen without the shell installed in a small cup of water up to the connector (below the sac guard joint), put that cup in an ultrasonic, and run it for 180 seconds. Repeat if necessary. While the collector might still be a little stained, you’ll get things pretty darn clean. Let it all dry and—assuming there are no issues with the pen like a corroded breather tube—screw the shell back on with a little rosin-based thread sealant or shellac. It should be good to go.
 

I get that a 51 will often put ink on a page with nothing more than a flush. But I don’t just want it to write; I want it to write well.

 

From my reading on this I feel like flushing any pen for a few seconds with ammonia wash shouldn't be problematic. Soaking is probably worse. I think it's a question for a different topic, but if you have a stubbornly dirty nib, knocking it out also puts stress on it. So would a few seconds running ammonia flush be worse than putting the nib through physical stress? I guess it's a "pick your poison" type of situation.

 

I haven't had the best luck with getting 51 hoods off so I kind of like to avoid it if I can. Usually if it's writing well I will leave it alone. I did have a problematic Parker 51 Special a few months ago that would stop writing after a few seconds of writing, that one I completely took apart the front (also realigned the nib and feed, they were off) and gave a good scrub. Writes very well now.

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

Sigh, I gotta stop doing what works for other people and just do what works for me. I'm half an hour into a painful session trying to get the hood off and it will not budge no matter how much heat I apply. I have nowhere to grip, the sac guard is loose and turns instead of the hood. Should have just left it alone.

[Ron Z]

Some hoods are really stubborn.   Having the right tools helps.  You need an aerometric 51 wrench.  The wrench grips the threads at the back end where the material is thicker,  and allows you to remove the hood.  Gripping the sac guard is a good way to snap something.  Sooner or later you will need the wrench.

[LoveBigPensAndCannotLie]

I got it off, slightly burned my finger (was stupid and touched the clutch ring after heating it) and gave myself a really bad callous. Don't understand why this was so tough, I don't see all that much shellac on it. Some whiteish residue though. More damage to me than the pen, so I guess it's a success.

 

I ended up taking the sac off in frustration so I could have a better grip on the threads without it getting in the way. Still took a lot of force. I think this was overtightened. Took almost half a turn before I started seeing any space between the hood and the connector. I am guessing this had a previous repair and they didn't have the nib alignment quite right so they tightened it too much.

 

Think I have to get a new PVC sac now... this one seems solid enough but has an indentation, probably from me messing with the sac protector.