Some Ink Tests

[USG]

13 hours ago, Penguincollector said:

  Funny, I had Golden Lapis in my WingSung 698 SF for months without any issues, even though it had so much shimmer that I just added 2 other Pelikan inks after that fill without rinsing to use it all up. I love it. 

 

That's because it's afraid to clog your 698.....  

 

13 hours ago, Penguincollector said:

  I will endeavor not to sneeze on this next test.

 

🙃

 

21 hours ago, Baka1969 said:

I hate this ink sub forum. Now I have to go and get another dozen or three inks. I already have dozens. I see all of these "must have" ink colors. I should have as many inks as I do pens....One for each. 

 

 

This is just a few.

 

That's a great collection....  👍

 

7 hours ago, Lithium466 said:

@InesF put it in the "inks with middle-high delivery" (without the shimmer particles)

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1mSWCRuy2QofZDOiqrwxnNDqp-MJNIFhOMyRc0qyNj9U/htmlview#gid=0

 

More than the delivery or flow or I'm never sure how to describe that, I would rate the lubrication as above average (better than the 4001 inks I tried, which is not all).

 

@Penguincollector the WS 698 is an excellent idea, I'll try!

 

Hi LTM, I'm so late to the party on lubrication.   I have a hard time distinguishing between lubrication and flow....  If it flows well it feels lubricated...  and then there's the paper factor...  ???

[USG]

I stumbled on this video of how to clean a 823 without removing the section    LINK

 

The guy said that he knows about the 'cracking' so he doesn't unscrew the section, instead he pulls the nib...  I never thought of doing that.

 

I took some screen shots for Y'all.

 

Here's the nib right before he pulled it...

 

This is right after he pulled the nib, you can see the section is still attached

 

Here's the nib, It came right out.  I don't see any 'O' rings, apparently it just slides in without a key

 

After he removed the plunger rod, he washes out the barrel with the section attached

 

Finally, he lubes up the plunger rod assembly and screws it back into the barrel 

 

You guys think this is the answer?  I remove the nibs on my Pelikans and Auroras.  Maybe this is how to clean the pen without removing the section.....  Any reservations???

[Lithium466]

3 hours ago, USG said:

Hi LTM, I'm so late to the party on lubrication.   I have a hard time distinguishing between lubrication and flow....  If it flows well it feels lubricated...  and then there's the paper factor...  ???

 

Ignoring the paper for now (even if it's a big factor as well), yes and now. Higher flow will help a low lubricated ink pass as decent, but an ink can have a lowish flow and still feel slick and lubricated. And of course an ink with low lubrication and lower delivery can feel horrible in some pens (Color Traveller Miyajima scarlet, I'm looking at you).

So definitely flow (or delivery?) and lubrication can be two different factors, even if they somewhat go hand in hand. I think @LizEF had written something to explain that much better, but I couldn't find it again.

 

Take a pen with by design a lowish ink delivery (Pilot with PO nib, for ex), the, the ink lubrication itself will become important. Many inks will feel "ok", but some will make it feel less pleasant (Unless of course you like feedback).

Same thing with some feebacky pens, put some Diamine Peach Haze in a Sailor and the feedback will be exacerbated, etc.

 

3 hours ago, USG said:

I stumbled on this video of how to clean a 823 without removing the section    LINK

 

The guy said that he knows about the 'cracking' so he doesn't unscrew the section, instead he pulls the nib...  I never thought of doing that.

 

I took some screen shots for Y'all.

 

Here's the nib right before he pulled it...

 

This is right after he pulled the nib, you can see the section is still attached

 

Here's the nib, It came right out.  I don't see any 'O' rings, apparently it just slides in without a key

 

After he removed the plunger rod, he washes out the barrel with the section attached

 

Finally, he lubes up the plunger rod assembly and screws it back into the barrel 

 

You guys think this is the answer?  I remove the nibs on my Pelikans and Auroras.  Maybe this is how to clean the pen without removing the section.....  Any reservations???

 

Well considering the plunger part is glued as well on mine, that's only a partial solution. I try not to remove the nibs on my Pilot too often as that eventually decreases the ability to fill through the low air channel (?) in the feed as well, but that's definitely an option to grease the plunger gaskets on the 823.

[Lithium466]

3 hours ago, USG said:

Here's the nib, It came right out.  I don't see any 'O' rings, apparently it just slides in without a key

 

I missed that, there is a translucent gasket or whatever that's called at the bottom of the feed, sometimes it stays in the section, here it shows on the feed. Don't loose it! 😂

[Baka1969]

6 hours ago, USG said:

 

That's because it's afraid to clog your 698.....  

 

 

🙃

 

 

That's a great collection....  👍

 

 

Hi LTM, I'm so late to the party on lubrication.   I have a hard time distinguishing between lubrication and flow....  If it flows well it feels lubricated...  and then there's the paper factor...  ???

 

here's the entire family

 

[LizEF]

3 hours ago, Lithium466 said:

I think @LizEF had written something to explain that much better, but I couldn't find it again.

It was probably something in passing in a thread not related closely enough to easily find. And since I mention lubrication in my reviews, there's a lot of "noise" in the search results.

 

IMO, you explained it well enough, but here are the details from my experience:

1. Flow is simply the rate at which ink flows from the pen. Ines's thread on ink wetness is the place to go if you want to learn.
2. Lubrication is the degree to which the ink reduces friction between nib and paper.
3. I believe that some inks have a lubricant added. I believe that really high dye concentration (such as in super-sheeners) lubricates better (despite also usually flowing drier).  Water lubricates poorly (which is partly why diluting with water worsens lubrication - along with the fact that it dilutes any lubricants in the ink). Someone on reddit has been experimenting the Octopus Ink Extender, and apparently it improves lubrication while diluting the ink at the same time.  (It's a clear fluid that may or may not be intended to make ink flow wetter - I've never looked that up, but is clearly intended to dilute ink (hence the name).)  Birmingham Pens offer essentially a clear ink - the base before any dyes are added - that I assume would serve the same purpose, but I've never read tests of it, nor tested it myself.  De Atramentis offer a dilution liquid that I'm guessing is the same thing. Again, I don't know that any of these are the same as the various "ink wetter" solutions also offered.
4. All else being equal, a wetter ink will feel more lubricated than a drier ink (even if some technical measurement could establish the same degree of lubrication) simply because there's more ink between the nib and the paper.  (All else being equal, the same ink will feel smoother from a wet-flowing pen than a dry-flowing pen.)
5. The finer the nib, the more you'll notice ink lubrication.  In a broad enough and wet enough nib, you may not notice it at all.  (I suspect that a sharp italic would notice lubrication more than a stub, but that's a guess.)
6. The lighter your hand, the less you'll feel poor lubrication. The heavier your hand, the more you'll appreciate good lubrication. (I recommend the lightest hand you can manage and continual practice to lighten it.)
7. The paper can impact your perception, depending not only on how smooth or textured it is, but also on other factors I don't quite know how to name, but essentially how it interacts with the nib to create drag, how likely it is to catch the edges of a very fine tine, how quickly it pulls in ink, and how cushioned it is (either as a sheet or a stack or the substrate) and thus how much the nib "sinks" into the paper, which can lead to the edges of the tine catching, etc.

If you want to feel the difference, choose an ink from my list with "excellent" lubrication and another with "awful" lubrication and use them back-to-back in a Japanese EF nib (or finer) with all the other variables the same, and pay close attention to writing feel.  (I usually recommend Herbin Bleu des Profondeurs and Herbin Poussière de Lune for this, but any with the same ratings should do.)

 

I'm probably forgetting something, but that's enough for now.

[Mechanical]

@LizEF, thank you, this is so helpful.  Of course I have the direct experiences of these factors, but it's so nice to have the words to go with them.

[LizEF]

5 minutes ago, Mechanical said:

@LizEF, thank you, this is so helpful.  Of course I have the direct experiences of these factors, but it's so nice to have the words to go with them.

You're most welcome!

[USG]

12 hours ago, Lithium466 said:

I missed that, there is a translucent gasket or whatever that's called at the bottom of the feed, sometimes it stays in the section, here it shows on the feed. Don't loose it! 😂

 

I didn't see that translucent O ring before...  it's right at the end of the feed, right?

 

8 hours ago, LizEF said:

It was probably something in passing in a thread not related closely enough to easily find. And since I mention lubrication in my reviews, there's a lot of "noise" in the search results.

 

IMO, you explained it well enough, but here are the details from my experience:

1. Flow is simply the rate at which ink flows from the pen. Ines's thread on ink wetness is the place to go if you want to learn.
2. Lubrication is the degree to which the ink reduces friction between nib and paper.
3. I believe that some inks have a lubricant added. I believe that really high dye concentration (such as in super-sheeners) lubricates better (despite also usually flowing drier).  Water lubricates poorly (which is partly why diluting with water worsens lubrication - along with the fact that it dilutes any lubricants in the ink). Someone on reddit has been experimenting the Octopus Ink Extender, and apparently it improves lubrication while diluting the ink at the same time.  (It's a clear fluid that may or may not be intended to make ink flow wetter - I've never looked that up, but is clearly intended to dilute ink (hence the name).)  Birmingham Pens offer essentially a clear ink - the base before any dyes are added - that I assume would serve the same purpose, but I've never read tests of it, nor tested it myself.  De Atramentis offer a dilution liquid that I'm guessing is the same thing. Again, I don't know that any of these are the same as the various "ink wetter" solutions also offered.
4. All else being equal, a wetter ink will feel more lubricated than a drier ink (even if some technical measurement could establish the same degree of lubrication) simply because there's more ink between the nib and the paper.  (All else being equal, the same ink will feel smoother from a wet-flowing pen than a dry-flowing pen.)
5. The finer the nib, the more you'll notice ink lubrication.  In a broad enough and wet enough nib, you may not notice it at all.  (I suspect that a sharp italic would notice lubrication more than a stub, but that's a guess.)
6. The lighter your hand, the less you'll feel poor lubrication. The heavier your hand, the more you'll appreciate good lubrication. (I recommend the lightest hand you can manage and continual practice to lighten it.)
7. The paper can impact your perception, depending not only on how smooth or textured it is, but also on other factors I don't quite know how to name, but essentially how it interacts with the nib to create drag, how likely it is to catch the edges of a very fine tine, how quickly it pulls in ink, and how cushioned it is (either as a sheet or a stack or the substrate) and thus how much the nib "sinks" into the paper, which can lead to the edges of the tine catching, etc.

If you want to feel the difference, choose an ink from my list with "excellent" lubrication and another with "awful" lubrication and use them back-to-back in a Japanese EF nib (or finer) with all the other variables the same, and pay close attention to writing feel.  (I usually recommend Herbin Bleu des Profondeurs and Herbin Poussière de Lune for this, but any with the same ratings should do.)

 

I'm probably forgetting something, but that's enough for now.

 

Thank you for weighing in Liz. 😀👍  

It's always helpful to read your clarifications. 😀👍

 

I've been writing with fountain pens for so long, that I think I'm not  noticing the details.  I'll have to pay more attention. 😀

 

[USG]

13 hours ago, Lithium466 said:

Well considering the plunger part is glued as well on mine, that's only a partial solution. I try not to remove the nibs on my Pilot too often as that eventually decreases the ability to fill through the low air channel (?) in the feed as well, but that's definitely an option to grease the plunger gaskets on the 823.

 

How do you know that your plunger is glued in?

 

Could you go into some detail about why you don't like to remove nibs on Pilot pens?

 

I don't understand why removal would decrease the ability to fill the pen.  I also don't know what the "low air channel" is or what it  has to do with filling?

 

So the bottom line is that you're not recommending this procedure as an alternative to being able to unscrew the section for cleaning....

------------------------------

I've also been experimenting with adding weight to a 743.  Since I use refilled cartridges, there's about an inch of space between the end of the barrel and the cartridge. I added some pre-cut lengths of solder to get an idea of what adding weight to a 743 would feel like, but I wasn't able to add enough to equal the weight of a 823.

 

I think I'm going to order some lead foil and see if I can make weight with that.

 

That said, the 743 definitely benefits from a little extra weight.

[LizEF]

25 minutes ago, USG said:

Thank you for weighing in Liz. 😀👍  

It's always helpful to read your clarifications. 😀👍

 

I've been writing with fountain pens for so long, that I think I'm not  noticing the details.  I'll have to pay more attention. 😀

You're most welcome.  A fine enough nib and an ink with poor enough lubrication, and you'd notice it.  

[USG]

1 minute ago, LizEF said:

You're most welcome.  A fine enough nib and an ink with poor enough lubrication, and you'd notice it.  

 

I have a Platinum 3776<SF>.  Do you think that will do?

[LizEF]

4 minutes ago, USG said:

I have a Platinum 3776<SF>.  Do you think that will do?

If it's as fine and dry as mine, yes, I think so.

[zmija]

17 hours ago, USG said:

 

Omg... This amount of grease will last for 20 years  

[Lithium466]

11 hours ago, USG said:

 

How do you know that your plunger is glued in?

I see the glue (I think) as my 823 is the clear transparent model, and initial attempt to unscrew without too much force wasn't successful. Maybe it's not glue but grease, and maybe I just didn't apply enough force.

 

11 hours ago, USG said:

Could you go into some detail about why you don't like to remove nibs on Pilot pens?

 

I don't understand why removal would decrease the ability to fill the pen.  I also don't know what the "low air channel" is or what it  has to do with filling?

 

I have a 912 where I did remove the feed a lot and now it's just a bit loose. There's a filling hole /air channel toward the tip of the feed, and now on that pen if I try to fill with only that hole submerged and not the whole section (which is much more practical and cleaner), it takes a longer time and I get more bubbles, my interpretation being that there is some air entering between the feed and the section, since it's a bit loose feeling now and perhaps the gasket isn't gasketing enough when the converter is sucking.

 

Speaking of the gasket, it's the translucent ring you can see on the picture, not at the end of the feed but before the last step down, which bottoms up in the section. If you remove a feed and don't see a gasket, it's probably still in the section.

 

11 hours ago, USG said:

So the bottom line is that you're not recommending this procedure as an alternative to being able to unscrew the section for cleaning....

------------------------------

 

Not really recommending or not, just pointing that everything is good with moderation 😂

If it's the only option it's the only option.

 

11 hours ago, USG said:

I've also been experimenting with adding weight to a 743.  Since I use refilled cartridges, there's about an inch of space between the end of the barrel and the cartridge. I added some pre-cut lengths of solder to get an idea of what adding weight to a 743 would feel like, but I wasn't able to add enough to equal the weight of a 823.

 

I think I'm going to order some lead foil and see if I can make weight with that.

 

That said, the 743 definitely benefits from a little extra weight.

 

Are you adding the weight in the barrel, behind the cartridge, or around?

[USG]

13 hours ago, Lithium466 said:

Are you adding the weight in the barrel, behind the cartridge, or around?

my trial was below the cartridge but if I had foil it might be both around, if there's room, and below....

[Penguincollector]

  So per USG’s request, I revisted the Yamamoto Art Paper and took some close up photos of some inks that both of us have in common, plus a fun sheening ink that I have really wanted to try on this paper. 

I almost see an outline on American Blue when I zoom in:

I definitely see one on Sailor 743:

Pilot BB shades nicely:

As did Asa-Gao:

Shin-Kai might also outline:

 

Sailor Blue Flame looks amazing:

 

[USG]

8 hours ago, Penguincollector said:

  So per USG’s request, I revisted the Yamamoto Art Paper and took some close up photos of some inks that both of us have in common, plus a fun sheening ink that I have really wanted to try on this paper. 

I almost see an outline on American Blue when I zoom in:

I definitely see one on Sailor 743:

Pilot BB shades nicely:

As did Asa-Gao:

Shin-Kai might also outline:

 

Sailor Blue Flame looks amazing:

 

 

Very Nice PGC !!!   So what do you think of this paper?

[Mechanical]

Thanks, @Penguincollector, those closeups really help.  I regret that Sailor Blue Flame isn't suitable for fountain pens.  It's such a sparkler!

 

And, I get a lot of satisfaction from the Iroshizuku Shin Kai.  It's a work-a-day blue black ink that has delightful nuance.  It's also really un-fussy in every pen I've tried it with.

[Penguincollector]

5 hours ago, USG said:

 

Very Nice PGC !!!   So what do you think of this paper?

  I really like it. It feels like writing on something painted, if that makes sense- kind of squeaky feeling; but it really is white and picks up ink nuances really well. It’s not one for front and back use, despite the high gsm- there’s a lot of ghosting on the verso. 
 

 

41 minutes ago, Mechanical said:

Thanks, @Penguincollector, those closeups really help.  I regret that Sailor Blue Flame isn't suitable for fountain pens.  It's such a sparkler!

 

And, I get a lot of satisfaction from the Iroshizuku Shin Kai.  It's a work-a-day blue black ink that has delightful nuance.  It's also really un-fussy in every pen I've tried it with.

    Thanks for looking! I have heard of people using Dipton inks in pens without any issues, but mostly lower cost wide nibs. I looked on the Sailor product page and it doesn’t mention binders of any sort, just a heavy dye load and/or shimmer for the Dipton line. I may try it in an inexpensive pen to see what happens. 
 

  I go in and out of loving BB inks. Right now I’m absolutely enjoying them, and Shin Kai in particular. It’s silky and yet shades so well.