Platinum Chou Kuro Black: "Distilled water recommended..."

[sketchstack]

Well here is an interesting development. 

 

I put some of this ink in a Jinhao x159. It was loaded in the pen pretty much since the ink was released. I purposely let it be vs. fretting over the condition of the pen --because the Jinhao is inexpensive. Meaning I kinda forgot about it, purposely. (Sacrificial lamb.)

 

Well today I go to remove the pen from the case. See the photos --that's what greeted me in my case. I had barely touched the pen --literally-- and it was already in pieces. It may have actually been in pieces before I even touched it. 

 

Long story short: Ink evaporated, collected around the clip ring (sludgy) and the plastic broke in that area. I didn't even bother to salvage the feed. Not worth the effort to fully clean. (Incidentally the feed looked fine.)

 

Not sure I blame ink or the pen. Rather, it's a worst case scenario of a cheap pen vs. an ink that requires special care. 

[yazeh]

Wow! Though it's not surprising those Jinhao x159 are really awful pens. 

I've had Noodler's Baystate Blue in a Jinhao 450 for almost 4 years. The ink evaporates I refill it. No explosion to report. I also have Kung Te Chang in a Kaweco for the same duration. I've never washed the pen and it writes on the go. KTC is known for having some of the tendencies of Chou-Kuro. 

In my experience with pigment/bulletproof inks, a pen with a good seal is paramount for an EDC. If a pen is not well sealed, it's pointless for irregular use....

[sketchstack]

Yes, the plastic is probably not the best on the Jinhao x159. But again I think it was a perfect storm. I have another x159 with some generic blue dye cartridge, inked around the same time. Not only is that pen still intact, but it was not even dried --it wrote straightaway. So it's nice to know the x159 is not inherently un-sealable. 

 

For harsher inks I'm definitely seeing the benefit of a cap with an inner seal. Both for limiting evaporation but to also limit the exposure of the ink and the actual cap itself. 

[yazeh]

6 hours ago, sketchstack said:

Yes, the plastic is probably not the best on the Jinhao x159. But again I think it was a perfect storm. I have another x159 with some generic blue dye cartridge, inked around the same time. Not only is that pen still intact, but it was not even dried --it wrote straightaway. So it's nice to know the x159 is not inherently un-sealable. 

I know of a person who added an O-ring in the cap to give it a good seal. 

6 hours ago, sketchstack said:

 

For harsher inks I'm definitely seeing the benefit of a cap with an inner seal. Both for limiting evaporation but to also limit the exposure of the ink and the actual cap itself. 

Yep! Anyway these pens are good mostly for experiments

 

[miig]

On 8/5/2023 at 8:08 AM, sketchstack said:

Well here is an interesting development.

 

Oh my... I loaded my M1000 with it... the black one, of course . If that one suddenly falls apart from the destructive power of Chou Kuro, I will be very annoyed .

 

Seriously though... when I started out with fountain pens, I was so bored out by black inks. Why would anyone use them?

A year of sheen, shimmer and shading later, and it is very soothing for the eyes to have some muted colors

 

So, recently I went for it:

 

 

The ink is already dominating the M1000, which might soon be dissolved... until then, I can only say, stay away from this ink! The black inks that you liked so much will suddenly look grey to you.

 

Horrible lighting, nothing good, but fun enough for now.

 

 

 

It was worth every Euro, what an ink.

[sketchstack]

Very brave loading your M1000 with it. I'm focusing on pens that take converters to ensure I can clean it well when the time comes. 

 

I too am liking the ink quite a bit. There's one unexpected benefit that I've noticed: Chou Kuro does well against hand oils. Where some inks skip annoyingly, Chou Kuro seems to just keep going without issue. 

 

Another benefit: I don't normally like really fine nibs but with this ink the line has more contrast and is therefore more readable. For example I have loaded it in a Platinum 3776 Soft Fine, thus giving me more reason to use that pen. 

 

I do hope Platinum releases Chou Kuro in cartridges like they have for their Carbon ink. When cleaning out the Chou Kuro, it's a bit of pain to use distilled water for all components (nib/section, converter, syringe if used). Cartridge would just be a nice convenience. 

[amper]

On 7/6/2023 at 3:40 PM, yazeh said:

ASE USE PURIFIED WATER, DO NOT USE TAP WATER WHEN CLEANING "CHOU-KURO" INK.

 

This ink stands out because the pigment particles react with and adhere to the mineral components in the paper. Tap water typically contains minerals, and if a fountain pen is cleaned using tap water, the ink particles inside the pen nib that were not washed away may adhere to the minerals and potentially affect ink flow.

 

https://www.platinum-pen.co.jp/common/img/pdf/chokoku_web(english).pdf

 

 

If I remember correctly, it’s not merely “distilled” water, it’s deionized water, something that is usually only used in laboratories. 

[inkstainedruth]

On 11/12/2023 at 9:46 AM, amper said:

 

If I remember correctly, it’s not merely “distilled” water, it’s deionized water, something that is usually only used in laboratories. 

That sounds like what my dad used to bring home from work for my mom to use in her steam iron.  Not having access to that, myself, I'm limited to distilled water, which I can easily get by the gallon in my local grocery store, and works fine for both my steam iron and for flushing pens out.  But if *deionized* water is what Platinum is suggesting to flush out Chou Kuro, maybe I'll pass on trying a sample of it.  Yes, it seems very black -- but Noodler's Heart of Darkness is good enough for me in that department, and is pretty permanent on the page and still fairly easy to flush out of a pen (which I just did last week, after ending up with two pens sporting fills of Pelikan 4001 Brilliant Black, after getting them repaired at the Ohio Pen Show).  

I tend to not use black ink a lot in general -- yet besides the two pens with 4001 Brilliant Black, I've also got some unknown reconstituted black ink in the Senator calligraphy pen (not sure of what the actual model is) I picked up cheap at a recent estate sale.  Not sure what the ink is, either, but since I also got a bottle of modern Skrip Black, I'm guessing that might be what's in the Senator.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Lithium466]

I'm lacking the English subtleties, distilled and deionized ; different names, different "production" techniques, almost same result (water without, or almost without mineral content).

 

Most of what is sold as distilled water is really deionized, it's much cheaper to produce.

[amper]

On 11/13/2023 at 10:30 PM, inkstainedruth said:

That sounds like what my dad used to bring home from work for my mom to use in her steam iron.  Not having access to that, myself, I'm limited to distilled water, which I can easily get by the gallon in my local grocery store, and works fine for both my steam iron and for flushing pens out.  But if *deionized* water is what Platinum is suggesting to flush out Chou Kuro, maybe I'll pass on trying a sample of it.  Yes, it seems very black -- but Noodler's Heart of Darkness is good enough for me in that department, and is pretty permanent on the page and still fairly easy to flush out of a pen (which I just did last week, after ending up with two pens sporting fills of Pelikan 4001 Brilliant Black, after getting them repaired at the Ohio Pen Show).  

I tend to not use black ink a lot in general -- yet besides the two pens with 4001 Brilliant Black, I've also got some unknown reconstituted black ink in the Senator calligraphy pen (not sure of what the actual model is) I picked up cheap at a recent estate sale.  Not sure what the ink is, either, but since I also got a bottle of modern Skrip Black, I'm guessing that might be what's in the Senator.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

I admit that I'm impressed with what I've seen of Chou Kuro (literally means "really black" or "super black"), but I personally feel like it's more trouble than I need to bother with. I'm going to order a bottle of the regular Platinum Carbon Black, which is like $14 on Amazon right now.

[miig]

On 11/11/2023 at 11:01 PM, sketchstack said:

Very brave loading your M1000 with it. I'm focusing on pens that take converters to ensure I can clean it well when the time comes.

Hehe, thanks They match too well and I'm actually not worried about harmful effects. The nib unit is screw-in, so dissassembly is possible if requred. I don't expect the pen to dissolve...

 

On 11/11/2023 at 11:01 PM, sketchstack said:

Another benefit: I don't normally like really fine nibs but with this ink the line has more contrast and is therefore more readable.

Yeah, with the juicy line of the M1000M it is a quite dramatic way of writing. I appreciate that.

 

On 11/12/2023 at 3:46 PM, amper said:

If I remember correctly, it’s not merely “distilled” water, it’s deionized water, something that is usually only used in laboratories. 

Platinum's official handout for the ink simply says "purified water". So affordable distilled water should be all you need

 

[Horseflesh]

My tap water is very very soft and I promise that when I eventually get this ink, I will try it in a cheap pen and clean it with tap water to see what happens. When that happens I'll share my findings and my water report for the other water nerds. 

 

I suspect that distilled water is not required, but due to the wide variation in tap water parameters, distilled water is the only universally safe procedure. 

 

[miig]

I believe so @Horseflesh. In my second rabbit hole, good quality tea, this becomes very apparent. Minerals in water react with the tannins in tea, so if the water is too hard (rich in minerals), unpleasant things happen to the tea.

 

Some tap waters are so rich in minerals that they will form a greasy layer on top of the tea when they bind with the tannins. That layer absorbs most of the flavor and the tea is barely drinkable. In less extreme cases, it is still much less rich und complex than it would be with the right water.

 

I am not sure if the reactions are similar, but I think the analogy stands. I can imagine that cleaning Chou Kuro with a very mineral-rich water could lead to weird things.

 

(Distilled water is terrible for making tea, because the mineral content mustn't be too low either. And it is unhealthy anyways to drink demineralized water. For pen cleaning obviously, the more depleted the water, the better).

[inkstainedruth]

The problem with drinking distilled water, according to what my mom once told me, is that it isn't aerated.  At the place she used to work (a pharmaceutical company's lab) someone put distilled water in the drinking water dispenser and apparently it tasted TERRIBLE.  But one of her co-workers figured out that if he poured it back and forth a few times between cups, you got enough oxygen/nitrogen back into it that it was more like "regular" tap water.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[amper]

On 11/11/2023 at 4:08 PM, miig said:

Seriously though... when I started out with fountain pens, I was so bored out by black inks. Why would anyone use them?

Black is my favorite color of anything...except writing ink. I find the high contrast of black ink on white paper to be tiring to use on a constant basis. I only use black ink for artworks and for color coding. For daily writing, I prefer a dark blue.

[sketchstack]

On 11/18/2023 at 5:07 PM, Horseflesh said:

I suspect that distilled water is not required, .... 

 

 

Worth noting that of any ink I've ever used (pigment, dye, iron gall), Chou Kuro is the only one that reacted / appeared differently when using tap vs. distilled. 

 

Whether it's an actual problem is not something I intend to discover. But it does absolutely react differently. Take that for what it's worth. 

 

One thing I'm not appreciating about Chou Kuro is the cleanup of associated components and accessories. Using a syringe to refill an old cartridge? Well, now the syringe needs to be cleaned with distilled water. I bought the original kit that came with 250ml of water and I found that it was good for about two, maybe three pen/converter flushes. So for now I'm going to keep a couple of dedicated pens for this ink only so I don't have to clean them so often. 

[sketchstack]

On 11/18/2023 at 6:23 AM, miig said:

Hehe, thanks They match too well and I'm actually not worried about harmful effects. The nib unit is screw-in, so dissassembly is possible if requred. I don't expect the pen to dissolve...

 

 

Good point --I tend to forget that Pelikan has those nice removable nib units. You're probably joking about the pen dissolving but ...I did have a cheap Jinhao x159 fall apart after putting Chou Kuro in for a while. No, I don't think your M1000 is at risk either but it's kinda funny that you mentioned 'dissolving' as that's exactly what happened to the Jinhao (the ink evaporated in the cap and eroded the threads for the finial. The clip and final literally fell off). 

[miig]

21 minutes ago, sketchstack said:

One thing I'm not appreciating about Chou Kuro is the cleanup of associated components and accessories. Using a syringe to refill an old cartridge? Well, now the syringe needs to be cleaned with distilled water. I bought the original kit that came with 250ml of water and I found that it was good for about two, maybe three pen/converter flushes. So for now I'm going to keep a couple of dedicated pens for this ink only so I don't have to clean them so often. 

I can see how that would be annoying if you have a different workflow. I have been using distilled water from the start, so it's no extra effort for me.

 

20 minutes ago, sketchstack said:

it's kinda funny that you mentioned 'dissolving' as that's exactly what happened to the Jinhao

yes I know! You meantioned that earlier in the thread, that's what I was referring to

[Horseflesh]

On 11/23/2023 at 10:40 AM, sketchstack said:

Worth noting that of any ink I've ever used (pigment, dye, iron gall), Chou Kuro is the only one that reacted / appeared differently when using tap vs. distilled. 

 

I do not doubt that but the entire point of my post was observing that tap water varies a lot. There can be a 100x difference in the amount of stuff dissolved in tap water. 

 

Since my tap water is on the very low end of dissolved stuff, I am going to try it when I get this ink. If I was on rock-hard well water, I wouldn't bother. 

[sketchstack]

On 11/26/2023 at 6:57 PM, Horseflesh said:

...

Since my tap water is on the very low end of dissolved stuff, I am going to try it when I get this ink. If I was on rock-hard well water, I wouldn't bother. 

 

I'm assuming there will be no immediately profound, easily observed realization. The issue with water type, if there  truly is one, is likely to reveal itself after heavy use, over time, and perhaps in pens with more places for ink to collect such as piston fillers, etc. 

 

The conversations around problematic ink types vs. pens (pigment, iron gall) reminds me of the repetitious cautions in automobile forums about using different types of motor oil (synthetic vs. non-): In automobile forums there might be 10,000+ dire warnings on using the wrong kind of oil, sometimes copy-and-pasted, over and over ...and zero posts where someone actually reports a problem due to the wrong kind of oil.