How square is a Sailor tipping really?

[antares1966]

On 6/20/2023 at 4:08 PM, Sailor Kenshin said:

Sailor pens have pleasant, pencil-like feedback, and an equally pleasant hiss when writing.

 

At least, mine do!

That was the buzz on Aurora nibs as well, toothy—it kind of put me off them for a long time until I finally got to put an Aurora nib to paper and found I really liked the sensation.  
 

Have you ever written with an Aurora nib to be able to compare?  I have my eye on a 1911 and unfortunately not really any brick and mortar places to get one in my hand.

[A Smug Dill]

7 hours ago, InkSync said:

Your English handwriting indeed looks very distinctive, with terminals having some extra flair and regularity. Did you consciously choose to do this?

 

I suppose the answer must be in the affirmative, although these days I have three primary styles of handwriting — quasi-Italic ‘printing’, cursive, and graffiti-like — I use about equally as often, so I'm not quite sure to which you were referring.  The influences come from different sources and at different times.

 

7 hours ago, InkSync said:

Was it because you learned to write Chinese before English? (excuse my curiosity)

 

Not because. I think I probably started on English alphabet copybooks before, and certainly no later than, elementary Chinese character copybooks; but all that was writing in monoline. I don't think I was instructed or advised to write the three strokes in the character 三 such that they aren't perfectly straight, parallel, and horizontal — not when I was two years old, and not even when I was ten years old. Fēng wasn't even a concept taught to us when we had to learn and practice Chinese brush calligraphy compulsorily (for a short while, anyway) in the later primary school years; in fact, I didn't come across it until some time after I turned fifty.

 

By then, I've been writing in English in my normal, slightly graffiti-like hand for decades, during which time it has evolved of course. I think a lot of the influences on it came from martial arts training in various styles; from the abrupt, staccato, hard blocking movements in karate and taekwondo, stuns and small-circle deflections in kung fu, to flowing slashing movements in Filipino stick- and knife-fighting, which all developed into muscle memory of when to speed up and when to slow down with in the execution of a single moment, when to rein in driving power and when to let it find ballistic expression.

[Sailor Kenshin]

11 hours ago, antares1966 said:

That was the buzz on Aurora nibs as well, toothy—it kind of put me off them for a long time until I finally got to put an Aurora nib to paper and found I really liked the sensation.  
 

Have you ever written with an Aurora nib to be able to compare?  I have my eye on a 1911 and unfortunately not really any brick and mortar places to get one in my hand.

No, never wrote with an Aurora.  Someone else probably has…

[Number99]

On 6/22/2023 at 2:03 AM, A Smug Dill said:

 

I'm not sure whether this is the best or most accurate representation, but I meant something like this:

It's the leading edge of the ink being pushed along and/or spread on the paper surface. The writing instrument has to lend itself to producing a leading edge (including reduction to almost a sharp point) of the right width and shape with the ink.

Thank you for your reply.

 

Due to the addition of your description of the edges, a correct translation was performed on your description by the translation software.

Initially, the translation software mistranslated or sound-translated the word "edge" as a Japanese word, which is a foreign word of English origin expressed in phonetic characters. It means a "blade" or structures with sharp lines on a knife, skis, or skates.

Now, with the addition of more detailed explanations, it is translated as "先端(tip)", which can be interpreted as 縁, 辺, 先, or 端, and applies to any shape that is not necessarily sharp.

Indeed, there is an edge (Boundary between the white of the paper and the ink pigment) at both ends of a line drawn on paper, and the writing instrument has a corresponding point (edge).

The shape brought about by the polyhedral polishing of Sailor fountain pen tipping has a more distinctly shaped surface corresponding to the edge of the ink line than other manufacturers.

 

So far my interpretation of "edge" as presented in this thread has been in regards to simple geometry, corresponding to the finishing and manufacturing process of tipping as an industrial product.

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Number99

[A Smug Dill]

On 6/19/2023 at 10:12 PM, PithyProlix said:

The unnatural speed of that video made me a bit nervous. 😅 It's much nicer, btw, if it is played at half speed. The piano music also becomes very pensive and accompanies the video much better, imo.

 

Although I generally dislike watching video clips on YouTube (and other “social media” content-sharing platforms), I finally watched that video — without audio playing — out of curiosity. I don't understand what you mean by unnatural speed. I can see from the choppiness that there was some editing done; but, in terms of his execution of the pen strokes, it looks about right to get that level of “wetness” out of the Sailor pen and nib, and not artificially sped up (or slowed down).

[PithyProlix]

17 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Although I generally dislike watching video clips on YouTube (and other “social media” content-sharing platforms), I finally watched that video — without audio playing — out of curiosity. I don't understand what you mean by unnatural speed. I can see from the choppiness that there was some editing done; but, in terms of his execution of the pen strokes, it looks about right to get that level of “wetness” out of the Sailor pen and nib, and not artificially sped up (or slowed down).

 

When I view the video at "Normal" speed on my laptop and phone it looks significantly sped up and unnatural. It is most apparent when the pen is lifted to end a character until it is put down for the next character but it is also quite apparent for the within-character lifts, to my eye. 

[A Smug Dill]

6 minutes ago, PithyProlix said:

It is most apparent when the pen is lifted to end a character until it is put down for the next character but it is also quite apparent for the within-character lifts, to my eye. 

 

Some pauses have been edited out of the recorded activity, that much is apparent from the choppiness of the playback. However, I don't think there is any speeding up, as in increase of the playback speed by some ratio over the actual speed of the event/action, of the execution of each pen stroke.

 

This is what I think of as speeding up playback of a video recording.

 

[Number99]

The video summary section indicates that the piece was produced to be played normally at 3x speed.

However, it looked normal speed or slow to me.

Certainly the creator's hand in the air seemed to have strong habits, but that is because the work was pre-set to 3x speed.

[A Smug Dill]

4 minutes ago, Number99 said:

The video summary section indicates that the piece was produced to be played normally at 3x speed.

However, it looked normal speed or slow to me.

 

OK. I didn't see that line, as the panel of text was half obscured under [More]. YouTube only allows me to set the playback to a maximum of 2x speed anyway. I can believe the execution of the movements at that speed; but the ink flow for the pen would have to be tuned quite wet, and the movement of the pooled ink at the end of each pen stroke travelling in the reverse direction after each pen lift looks unnaturally quick to me at that speed.

[Number99]

I was wondering if @PithyProlix knew the trick the video piece was about, and had given me a riddle to solve.

😅

[PithyProlix]

On 6/23/2023 at 9:08 PM, Number99 said:

I was wondering if @PithyProlix knew the trick the video piece was about, and had given me a riddle to solve.

😅

 

Google translates it to English as "Writing Speed: 3x". If the writing speed is actually three times the speed shown in the video, well, then I'm a monkey's uncle.*

 

*Idiomatic expression. Feel free to substitute "then the moon is made of green cheese". 

[gerigo]

I got a little lost in the thread and don't quite understand what the poster meant by describing Sailor's nib as "square". I have so many Sailors at this point that I have lost count. If there is one thing that is about Sailor's nibs is that they are not square at all. In fact, many Sailor's nibs have a slight zoom effect in that if it's held high versus low you get a slight line variation. Also I find that Sailor's nibs is well suited to Chinese character writing.

 

I have also viewed the video. Based on the fact that I also favor writing in the same "formal" or 楷书 style, I would say the speed of writing is real time. Not sped up or slowed down. For most Chinese people who write regularly, this would be considered extremely slow but it's the nature of the specific script. 

So is your question really about how Chinese writing is able to achieve the sharp corners with a round tip? In Western calligraphy, which I also practice, the nib determines the shape of the characters. Italic nibs for fraktur or italic fonts, and flex nibs for copperplate. But not in Chinese writing. 

[JohnM]

On 6/20/2023 at 3:08 PM, Sailor Kenshin said:

Sailor pens have pleasant, pencil-like feedback, and an equally pleasant hiss when writing.

 

At least, mine do!

 

I agree!  What explains this pencil-like feedback.  Very satisfying and unusual, in my experience.

[Sailor Kenshin]

13 hours ago, JohnM said:

 

I agree!  What explains this pencil-like feedback.  Very satisfying and unusual, in my experience.

😊 👍🏻

[Karmachanic]

14 hours ago, JohnM said:

What explains this pencil-like feedback.

 

The composition of the tipping.  There was discussion of this a few months ago.  Sorry can't find the thread.

[JohnM]

Thanks, I did see something about the tipping.  Was it that Sailor nibs are less rounded (sharper/more squared off) and therefore you get a bit more paper feel?

[Olya]

2 hours ago, JohnM said:

Thanks, I did see something about the tipping.  Was it that Sailor nibs are less rounded (sharper/more squared off) and therefore you get a bit more paper feel?

Yes, the tipping is sharper as can be seen on the previous page.

 

The feedback is due to a mix of tipping shape/grind (triangle with edges), tipping material (ie the specific mix of metals) and finish (ie final smoothing of tipping).

 

Here is the aforementioned thread, leading to yet another thread showing close-ups of several tippings, and Sailor's looks porous (compared to smoother tippings, like Pilot's or Pelikan's, which look less porous), which must contribute to the feedback. Also Sailor's tipping shape/grind has changed over the decades, it used to be "rounded" like Pilot's and is now less rounded with sharp edges:

 

the other thread with tipping close-ups

 

 

For Sailor, it appears that several things contribute to the feedback.

 

That means that smoothing the nib (like taking away the edges and going with a finer grit than Sailor might be using) likely won't give a very smooth nib like some other brands do.

[InkSync]

I now have my own Sailor PGS so I can answer my own question.

 

Yes, the less round tipping leads to a different mark left on the paper. At least with my M nib.

 

Lines drawn parallel to the pen are slightly thinner, lines drawn perpendicular to the pen are slightly thicker. It is very subtle but certainly changes the feeling. The end of lines are sometimes less rounded than eg. end of lines written with my Lamy Safari, if I look closely, but an M nib is fine enough that I don't think it makes a difference (perhaps if you write very small).

 

I will update my blog soon with a post about the pen and include some photos.

[Karmachanic]

@InkSync The nib used in the video link you provided is a zoom nib, which is indeed faceted. As per the image I posted. The nibs on my Pro Gear F and MF are elliptical.  This ellipse would account for the slight variation between horizontal and vertical lines.

[Number99]

Regarding the changes in the shape of tipping over time, I believe that Mr. Nagahara and his mentor, Mr. Koyama, had a great influence.

Mr. Nagahara was the last technician who mastered the manual polishing method before Sailor's tipping grinding process was mechanized.

I think it depends on the model, but it is said that the tipping shape until around 2012 when he was there is different from the tipping shape after that. It is also said to be different before and after he started working on special nibs such as naginata in earnest.

In fact, after he retired, the production of special nibs was inconvenienced by "production stoppages" and "order stoppages".

It would be difficult to provide a unified critique of the characteristics of Sailor's tipping shape for all models, past and present.

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Number99
Correction of mistranslation.