How square is a Sailor tipping really?

[InkSync]

I found a Youtube channel of someone using fountain pens for Chinese calligraphy. The way he uses the Sailor B nib (for example in this video starting at about 2:00) makes it look like the tip is slightly square.

 

People often say the Sailor nibs have a slightly square square tipping but I haven't heard before that it actually affects the result when writing. What is people's experience with this?

 

Edit: Never mind my usage of the word "square". By that I just mean "angular" or "faceted". I am asking whether, when writing with a regular Sailor, the mark left on the paper is less rounded because the tip is less rounded.

Edited June 19, 2023 by InkSync
Clarification

[Olya]

Google pictures of the Sailor Zoom nib, it's the exact same tipping style as the M and B, just bigger and easier to observe.

 

Sailor's tipping is a traingle, and depending how you write you can get an arabic/architect effect when you write.

 

My modern Waterman nib is also a flat triangle like Sailor, but the corners on the Waterman are rounded, whereas Sailor's corners a hard edges, which can contribute to the feeling of tooth or even unpleasant scratchiness.

 

In the video the person also appears to apply pressure, as the tines are slightly splayed sometimes.

 

Google pics is your best friend  here!

[Number99]

7 hours ago, InkSync said:

I found a Youtube channel of someone using fountain pens for Chinese calligraphy. The way he uses the Sailor B nib (for example in this video starting at about 2:00) makes it look like the tip is slightly square.

 

People often say the Sailor nibs have a slightly square square tipping but I haven't heard before that it actually affects the result when writing. What is people's experience with this?

I am not sure what Square means.

But if you look at a macro image of a Sailor fountain pen nib tipping, it consists of a polyhedron with no edges.

By the way, I write Japanese, including Kanji characters, and I don't understand what other people mean by "Sailor's unique kickback feeling".

I don't feel it.

Perhaps something is different.

 

Then again, I don't think people who don't write kanji gain anything from watching videos of people writing kanji, and I don't think they can analyze it.

For example, the Chinese character for "一", which corresponds to the number 1, actually makes three changes of direction and is strictly composed of four curves. (In my case, I wrote most of the fourth line in the air because I am inexperienced.)

Not knowing such a basic concept, it is only natural that many questions arise.

I can't say for sure because I don't know Western calligraphy, but I think that you probably can't translate the phenomena that occur in Kanji calligraphy to Western calligraphy.

It may not be the right expression, but Western calligraphy probably gives priority to the sensation of pressing the pen to the paper, but in comparison, Kanji calligraphy is more like trampolining on the paper. (This is just my personal opinion.)

Regarding what I wrote, sorry if you are from an area that writes Kanji characters.

 

*M nib of Sailor fountain pen.

From the blog post "万年筆おやじの備忘録".

Please pinch out the image to view.

https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/nekopen23/imgs/f/3/f32867db.jpg

Original image blog post.

From http://blog.livedoor.jp/nekopen23/archives/49743008.html

 

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Number99
Add image material.

[InkSync]

11 hours ago, Number99 said:

I can't say for sure because I don't know Western calligraphy, but I think that you probably can't translate the phenomena that occur in Kanji calligraphy to Western calligraphy.

It may not be the right expression, but Western calligraphy probably gives priority to the sensation of pressing the pen to the paper, but in comparison, Kanji calligraphy is more like trampolining on the paper. (This is just my personal opinion.)

 

 

 

I have a tiny experience of being taught Kanji/Hanzi calligraphy by someone who knows the basic principles, and I have watched some videos explaining types of strokes, so I know they are different. Regardless, your explanation was interesting.

 

To me it seems that Western calligraphy emphasises moving your pen quickly and confidently, but Kanji calligraphy is more about being patient and demonstrating fine control over the brush by combining fast and slow movements.

 

I do see that there are many times when the person in the video would pause or double back at the start or end of the stroke, making the end look even more angular, but there are also times when he doesn't do that.

[PithyProlix]

 

21 hours ago, InkSync said:

I found a Youtube channel of someone using fountain pens for Chinese calligraphy. The way he uses the Sailor B nib (for example in this video starting at about 2:00) makes it look like the tip is slightly square.

 

The unnatural speed of that video made me a bit nervous. 😅 It's much nicer, btw, if it is played at half speed. The piano music also becomes very pensive and accompanies the video much better, imo.

 

21 hours ago, InkSync said:

People often say the Sailor nibs have a slightly square square tipping but I haven't heard before that it actually affects the result when writing. What is people's experience with this?

 

I have many Sailors, ranging from the 1950s to roughly 2010, but none with a nib width greater than M. I never thought the tipping on any them was anything like a square.

 

14 hours ago, Number99 said:

It may not be the right expression, but Western calligraphy probably gives priority to the sensation of pressing the pen to the paper, but in comparison, Kanji calligraphy is more like trampolining on the paper. (This is just my personal opinion.)

 

With many Western calligraphy styles, the pen stays in contact with the paper, sometimes from the beginning of a word to the end. With Kanji and some other Eastern styles there seems to be many more lifts and much shorter lines, all in all, correct? (Analogous to the musical concepts of legato and staccato, perhaps?)

[Number99]

 

2 hours ago, InkSync said:

I do see that there are many times when the person in the video would pause or double back at the start or end of the stroke, making the end look even more angular, but there are also times when he doesn't do that.

Standard"(楷書), "running"(行書), "cursive"(草書), and their hybrids. Or your own unique typeface that is different from anyone else's.

 

A manufacturer called "Kai Mei"(開明) sells weasel hair brush pens for about $20USD (also available on Amazon.) In some cases, you have to dilute the concentration of the cartridge ink with water in a syringe, and you have to familiarize the tip well on inkstone or non-essential paper before use, but the hair is short and easy to use.

 

When you described the Square tipping shape, did you mean the slightly wider shape of the nib image I linked to?

To me, the basic shape of the tipping looks spherical.

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by Number99

[Number99]

1 hour ago, PithyProlix said:

With many Western calligraphy styles, the pen stays in contact with the paper, sometimes from the beginning of a word to the end. With Kanji and some other Eastern styles there seems to be many more lifts and much shorter lines, all in all, correct? (Analogous to the musical concepts of legato and staccato, perhaps?)

Perhaps in my case it is the rhythm of the writing stroke that I performed many times when I learned the individual kanji, carried out in the correct stroke order.

After that, the correct stroke trajectory is added.

 

postscript.

I write at more than twice the speed of video in my regular practice. So I was not uncomfortable with the 3x speed of the video.

But when I write with a brush pen, it's snail's pace.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Number99

[InkSync]

1 hour ago, Number99 said:

When you described the Square tipping shape, did you mean the slightly wider shape of the nib image I linked to?

To me, the basic shape of the tipping looks spherical.

 

Yes, by square I only meant not round 😅

 

Although the basic shape is spherical, it has facets. Different to (for example) a Lamy steel nib which has a smooth and round tipping. I thought maybe it produces a different mark on the page.

 

By the way, I don't want to learn calligraphy for now. I need to learn to write normally first! It's difficult for me to make the characters look balanced and well-proportioned.

Edited June 19, 2023 by InkSync

[Number99]

21 hours ago, InkSync said:

Yes, by square I only meant not round 😅

 

Although the basic shape is spherical, it has facets. Different to (for example) a Lamy steel nib which has a smooth and round tipping. I thought maybe it produces a different mark on the page.

 

By the way, I don't want to learn calligraphy for now. I need to learn to write normally first! It's difficult for me to make the characters look balanced and well-proportioned.

Then we were looking at the same thing.

I'm glad I was able to confirm this.

Seems to me I need to figure out why I am not feeling the "kickback sensation".

 

I would also think you don't do that yet, as the ink cartridges for brush pens go bad after some time.

 

*My use of "kickback" in this thread is a simple misuse of "feedback". Please read it differently, as it has a completely different meaning.

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Number99

[XYZZY]

6 hours ago, Number99 said:

Seems to me I need to figure out why I am not feeling the "kickback sensation".

 

Normally I wouldn't try to correct this, but you have used the work "kickback" twice in this thread, and I suspect something has become lost in translation.  The word should be "feedback", not "kickback".  At least in English.  Websters gives multiple definitions for feedback, but the one that best (not perfectly) applies here is #2:

 

Quote

the return to the input of a part of the output of a machine, system, or process (as for producing changes in an electronic circuit that improve performance or in an automatic control device that provide self-corrective action)

 

Although the part about "...improve performance or in an automatic control device that provide self-corrective action" might not be appropriate here.  But definitely the part about "the return to the input of a part of the output of a machine":  as I write, through my fingertips I get a sensation of roughness in the interaction between the nib and the paper.  That sensation is greater, to me, using Sailor nibs.  There have been some threads on FPN suggesting that the finish on Sailor's nibs is rougher (less smooth or polished) than other companies; that may be the case, but I think there is also something about the shape of their nibs that increases the effect.  I also think suspect that among those of us that like the sensation we will say that there's probably something going on in our brain that takes this sensation into account and turns it into refinements for improved control of the pen.

 

In 2018 I was learning how to grind nibs to cursive italic, and googling everything I could think of and reading everything I could find about nib grinding and nib shapes.  Somewhere I encountered a document illustrating nib profiles from different companies, including Sailor.  Sailor definitely had (according to the document) "facets" in their tipping.  I wish I could find it again.  I have a vague recollection that I found it via a different English-language fountain pen forum, and even then it was a post containing a link to a non-English fountain pen forum, which I couldn't read but could definitely download the attachment and understand the illustrations.

[Karmachanic]

From the 'net.  Don't recall where. Zoom nib.

 

 

 

[Number99]

14 hours ago, XYZZY said:

 

Normally I wouldn't try to correct this, but you have used the work "kickback" twice in this thread, and I suspect something has become lost in translation.  The word should be "feedback", not "kickback".  At least in English.  Websters gives multiple definitions for feedback, but the one that best (not perfectly) applies here is #2:

 

 

Although the part about "...improve performance or in an automatic control device that provide self-corrective action" might not be appropriate here.  But definitely the part about "the return to the input of a part of the output of a machine":  as I write, through my fingertips I get a sensation of roughness in the interaction between the nib and the paper.  That sensation is greater, to me, using Sailor nibs.  There have been some threads on FPN suggesting that the finish on Sailor's nibs is rougher (less smooth or polished) than other companies; that may be the case, but I think there is also something about the shape of their nibs that increases the effect.  I also think suspect that among those of us that like the sensation we will say that there's probably something going on in our brain that takes this sensation into account and turns it into refinements for improved control of the pen.

 

In 2018 I was learning how to grind nibs to cursive italic, and googling everything I could think of and reading everything I could find about nib grinding and nib shapes.  Somewhere I encountered a document illustrating nib profiles from different companies, including Sailor.  Sailor definitely had (according to the document) "facets" in their tipping.  I wish I could find it again.  I have a vague recollection that I found it via a different English-language fountain pen forum, and even then it was a post containing a link to a non-English fountain pen forum, which I couldn't read but could definitely download the attachment and understand the illustrations.

It was an ordinary mistake of mine, not Google, not Deepl, but my mechanical recognition of a foreign word. 

😅

Thank you for not only pointing out the mistake but also for the explanation I should have given.

😄

I was aware of the terms "positive feedback" and "negative feedback" used in different fields. If by "feedback" you mean, in this case, the sensation you get in order to regulate output, then you must be feeling it unconsciously.

In my case, I understood that not feeling the strong feedback sensation that others refer to is acting as a feedback sensation to control excessive output.

Personal differences in writing pressure, pen angle, angle of the central axis, writing speed, etc., or differences in language may cause differences in sensation. 

I believe that the major part of this action in writing is due more to the input of visual information rather than this sensation.

So I have been mistakenly understanding "feedback" to mean tactile noise.

 

As for the effect of the faceted shape (polyhedron shape) of Sailor's tipping, I have read rumors that are not worth quoting, but since the tipping shape was designed by the people who developed Naginata and Sailor's special nib, I think the design must have some basis in enhancing the performance of the pen.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Number99

[Olya]

Feedbacky nibs give a sensation when writing, but also make noise, i.e. are loud.

It's noise and sensation, though typically when talking about feedback it's about the sensation, rarely about noise.

 

Some nibs are louder than others.

 

Platinum nibs have feedback, but don't have edges like Sailor.

 

Pilot nibs are quite smooth and are quieter than Sailor and Platinum nibs. Pilot tipping is also classically rounder (not totally round, also manage to write finer when the writing angle is higher and broader with lower writing angle, like Sailors).

[XYZZY]

I'm pretty sure the Sailor feedback is not subconscious.  It's tactile.  I'm sure that paper, ink, and many aspects of the writer are at play, too, so there's all kinds of reasons it might be perceived differently.
 

If there is an aspect to it based on sound...I'm deaf to frequencies above 1KHz, so if it's audible its below that (at least partially), otherwise I'm sensing it based only on tactile input.  But I suspect Number99 used "noise" to refer to random garbage input, and not necessarily sound.
 

I can't be 100% sure it's not subconscious, though.  No way to do any double blind testing without putting different nibs into a common holder.

[Sailor Kenshin]

Sailor pens have pleasant, pencil-like feedback, and an equally pleasant hiss when writing.

 

At least, mine do!

[A Smug Dill]

On 6/19/2023 at 7:48 PM, InkSync said:

To me it seems that Western calligraphy emphasises moving your pen quickly and confidently, but Kanji calligraphy is more about being patient and demonstrating fine control over the brush by combining fast and slow movements.

 

Western calligraphy has a wider scope — in terms of variety of styles and hands, and the writing instruments used to produce them — than Chinese calligraphy. Have a look in The Calligrapher's Bible: 100 Complete Alphabets and How to Draw Them by David Harris. Most calligraphic hands aren't cursive, in that the letters are not joined, either visually or in execution of the pen strokes that form the identifiable majuscules and minuscules. Scribe work of centuries ago in monasteries is undoubtedly still considered calligraphy by everyone today (even if it's not the style of writing they would like to produce by hand themselves), and its practice and execution calls for patience and fine control, not expressiveness.

 

Whereas Chinese calligraphy also has cursive styles that emphasise speed, flow, and expressiveness — often to the point of illegibility for most readers of the language — as well as old-school clerical script.

 

On 6/19/2023 at 7:48 PM, InkSync said:

I do see that there are many times when the person in the video would pause or double back at the start or end of the stroke, making the end look even more angular, but there are also times when he doesn't do that.

 

On 6/19/2023 at 11:39 PM, InkSync said:

Although the basic shape is spherical, it has facets. Different to (for example) a Lamy steel nib which has a smooth and round tipping. I thought maybe it produces a different mark on the page.

 

Calligraphy styles descended from, or are otherwise based on or imitates, the use of brushes as writing instruments — specifically in the Far Eastern tradition — emphasises heavily the concept of 鋒 fēng, which is difficult to translate into English while capturing its essence, but probably best thought of as the “leading edge or point”, even though of course there is no rigid edge on a writing brush and why it's a concept. One manipulates the brush such that the interface between the paper surface and the collective bristles on the brush changes shape, including and in particular the section of its perimeter that is leading in the direction of the stroke movement; and then there is the discipline whether to expose or emphasise the fēng, or to soften or hide or obscure it, for the terminals of each pen stroke with respect its ‘proper’ form. In order to emulate the effects of fēng manipulation, the nib tip has to be capable of exposing ‘edges’ of various widths, which is why tipping that isn't a perfectly round glob would be more suitable for such styles.

 

The manner in which I produce handwriting in English, when not specifically trying to enforce a ‘monoline’ appearance, also uses aspects of fēng to execute.

[Number99]

23 hours ago, XYZZY said:

I'm pretty sure the Sailor feedback is not subconscious.  It's tactile.  I'm sure that paper, ink, and many aspects of the writer are at play, too, so there's all kinds of reasons it might be perceived differently.
 

If there is an aspect to it based on sound...I'm deaf to frequencies above 1KHz, so if it's audible its below that (at least partially), otherwise I'm sensing it based only on tactile input.  But I suspect Number99 used "noise" to refer to random garbage input, and not necessarily sound.
 

I can't be 100% sure it's not subconscious, though.  No way to do any double blind testing without putting different nibs into a common holder.

I used the term "tactile noise" to refer to meaningless vibration signals transmitted to the hand other than sound.

I looked up "noise" in Wikipedia, and found that the English, German, and Japanese versions have different descriptions of noise.

 

By feedback I do not mean what you call clear feedback, but rather weak, imperceptible vibrations that do not exceed the threshold of perception.

Strictly speaking, it may be different from the feedback discussed here.

 

[Number99]

I guess I still don't understand it well enough, so please can someone tell me what I need to know?

😅

How can the expression "edge" be valid when it is visually obvious that the edges formed by the faces and planes have been chamfered and buffed industrially and geometrically disappeared?

I understand the expression "facet" as many plane surfaces remain. Does it mean that there are extremely gentle functional "edges" there?

Or is the roughness of the metal surface also included in the concept of an edge?

😅

I've seen videos of Nagahara's polishing process, and he's constantly buffing.

 

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, Number99 said:

How can the expression "edge" be valid

 

I'm not sure whether this is the best or most accurate representation, but I meant something like this:

It's the leading edge of the ink being pushed along and/or spread on the paper surface. The writing instrument has to lend itself to producing a leading edge (including reduction to almost a sharp point) of the right width and shape with the ink.

[InkSync]

14 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

In order to emulate the effects of fēng manipulation, the nib tip has to be capable of exposing ‘edges’ of various widths, which is why tipping that isn't a perfectly round glob would be more suitable for such styles.

 

Thank you for a lovely explanation. That makes it a lot clearer to me where the claim that "Sailor nibs are better for kanji/hanzi calligraphy" comes from. And now I know that when I was experimenting writing with a brush pen before, fēng is one of the things I was struggling with....

 

14 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

The manner in which I produce handwriting in English, when not specifically trying to enforce a ‘monoline’ appearance, also uses aspects of fēng to execute.

I had a look at some of the photos in your gallery. Your English handwriting indeed looks very distinctive, with terminals having some extra flair and regularity. Did you consciously choose to do this? Was it because you learned to write Chinese before English? (excuse my curiosity)