Curious Shading

[USG]

I’ve wanted to write about this for a long time.  Fake Shading really annoys me.

I’ve noticed that there are different types of shading.  One is  a traditional shading where the line color and width remains the constant and ink accumulates at pressure points darkening the color.

 

Another is also a traditional shading where the line color becomes lighter at low pressure points as the line thins out and darkens at high pressure points as the line thickens back up where ink accumulates. 

 

The ones that annoys me are when there are voids of an obnoxiously light color in a dark colored ink, with no line variation and no darkening due to pressure where the ink has accumulated.  I call that Fake Shading. It’s like there are globs of a vacuous material in the ink. I don’t know what manufacturers put in inks that cause that to happen but it’s Fake Shading.

 

Here are a couple of examples of Fake Shading I found while reading ink reviews:

 

 

I hope I got my thoughts down right, if not I'll go back and edit.

[inkstainedruth]

What are the two inks?  And what pen(s) were they in?

The top image doesn't bother me that much (I mostly don't care one way or the other about shading, other than really liking the kind where you get the crisp darker edges to pen strokes on the page -- what some people refer to as "haloing").  But the bottom image?  That is extremely difficult to read (the light ink color not helping, either).  It looks more like the nib and feed was having trouble keeping up with the ink flow....   (If that's the case, you may need to change inks, or have the nib tuned, or both....)

Although I like your choice of quotes to copy.... 

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

ETA: The reason I ask about the pens/nibs used and the inks is because it may also be a case where they aren't just good pen/ink combinations, and a using a different pen might work better with those particular inks.

[USG]

13 minutes ago, inkstainedruth said:

What are the two inks?  And what pen(s) were they in?

The top image doesn't bother me that much (I mostly don't care one way or the other about shading, other than really liking the kind where you get the crisp darker edges to pen strokes on the page -- what some people refer to as "haloing").  But the bottom image?  That is extremely difficult to read (the light ink color not helping, either).  It looks more like the nib and feed was having trouble keeping up with the ink flow....   (If that's the case, you may need to change inks, or have the nib tuned, or both....)

Although I like your choice of quotes to copy.... 

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

ETA: The reason I ask about the pens/nibs used and the inks is because it may also be a case where they aren't just good pen/ink combinations, and a using a different pen might work better with those particular inks.

 

It's not the pens or the nibs, it's Fake Shading....  Real shading doesn't look like that. 

 

A lot of the old inks could shade but they never looked like those examples.  Fake Shading looks artificial.

 

These aren't the only 2 examples, it's all over the place, especially in inks that are advertised as shading inks.  It's something the manufacturers put into the inks to get that effect.

 

The top image comes from a  Birmngham Pens ink review...https://mountainofink.com/blog/birmingham-rich

 

The bottom image is from a china blue ink review I was reading...https://mountainofink.com/blog/diamine-china-blue

 

 

[inkstainedruth]

I have not used either of the inks you had trouble with.  But will note that when I looked at the review of the Birmingham ink, it appears to be sheening ink (supersaturated to get the color sheen shift).  

And again, I would suggest you try them in different pens/nib widths to see if you can mimic the behavior.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Karmachanic]

You won't like Sailor Manyo Haha either, but others do. 

Off to find some vacuous material.  Sunyata

[txomsy]

The second one reminds me of the effects I see when writing on glossy paper, plastic coated or vitrified. Maybe it is the pen/ink/paper combination.

 

Other than that, it would be nice to have an idea why they behave like that, but I suppose there are people out there who will like it.

 

[inkstainedruth]

True.  And yet another reason why getting ink samples first if at all possible is a good idea.  Yeah, if you decide you like the ink well enough to buy a full bottle, it costs a little more overall -- but then you have an inexpensive traveling inkwell that is already labeled with what the ink in it is.... 

And if you DON'T like the ink?  You're only out a few bucks.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Penguincollector]

@USG, I think I get what you’re saying- that the lettering has ink pooling in places where it doesn’t in more traditional inks, and you think that there’s an something in these new inks that is causing the effect. I wonder if showing side by side pictures of a traditional shading ink  and one of these newer inks might better get the point across- especially if both are done with the same pen and paper. 

[USG]

2 hours ago, inkstainedruth said:

I have not used either of the inks you had trouble with.  But will note that when I looked at the review of the Birmingham ink, it appears to be sheening ink (supersaturated to get the color sheen shift).  

And again, I would suggest you try them in different pens/nib widths to see if you can mimic the behavior.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

ISR, I don't have either of those inks, the examples are from some ink reviews I was reading.

 

2 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

You won't like Sailor Manyo Haha either, but others do. 

Off to find some vacuous material.  Sunyata

 

Sailor Hahahhaha....  I looked up  a review.   You're right, it's not an ink I would like... OTOH I have Sailor Manyo Nadeshiko in a Waterman Patracian and other then being a very light color, I like it.

 

1 hour ago, txomsy said:

The second one reminds me of the effects I see when writing on glossy paper, plastic coated or vitrified. Maybe it is the pen/ink/paper combination.

 

Other than that, it would be nice to have an idea why they behave like that, but I suppose there are people out there who will like it.

 

 

I'm not sure what they put in the ink to make it shade.  I don't mind a little shading but I've seen some examples that look ridiculous to me.  It looks like there are globs of stuff in the ink that doesn't absorb the die.

 

1 hour ago, inkstainedruth said:

True.  And yet another reason why getting ink samples first if at all possible is a good idea.  Yeah, if you decide you like the ink well enough to buy a full bottle, it costs a little more overall -- but then you have an inexpensive traveling inkwell that is already labeled with what the ink in it is.... 

And if you DON'T like the ink?  You're only out a few bucks.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

Getting samples is a good idea. 😀 

 

58 minutes ago, Penguincollector said:

@USG, I think I get what you’re saying- that the lettering has ink pooling in places where it doesn’t in more traditional inks, and you think that there’s an something in these new inks that is causing the effect. I wonder if showing side by side pictures of a traditional shading ink  and one of these newer inks might better get the point across- especially if both are done with the same pen and paper. 

 

There must be something that they put in an ink that makes it shade like those samples.

But if you think about it, historically, we never saw writing samples that looked like what you see today.  Besides, with that much shading going on it makes the writing hard to read.

 

 

[Penguincollector]

@USG, you’re right, it does make it hard to read (and I don’t need any more issues with THAT, lol) and gives it an oily look. I can see it being cool for artwork, but it’s a bit much for writing. I wonder what gives that property to those inks? 

[USG]

19 minutes ago, Penguincollector said:

@USG, you’re right, it does make it hard to read (and I don’t need any more issues with THAT, lol) and gives it an oily look. I can see it being cool for artwork, but it’s a bit much for writing. 

 

I agree, it sorta looks like there was oil in the ink and the dye couldn't reach the paper evenly.  Like the nib was skipping and wasn't laying down a solid line of ink.

 

[Penguincollector]

I nodded my head reading your last post, @USG.

[txomsy]

I've been thinking about this.

 

I think it must be the dye content or a combination of dye concentration, solubility and ink "wetness".

 

If the "dye" is highly concentrated there will be no difference between points, all will be color oversaturated and there will not be any difference, which is what you would aim for in contents you want to be recorded and readable for a long time.

 

If the dye is low concentration then, depending on the amount of ink laid down on the paper, you will get more or less dye deposited. As you write, the line should look the same, but, as it dries points where you laid down more ink will evaporate water and the "dye" will concentrate. Depending on the dye concentration, color saturation and transparency, this will mean more or less color on points where you lay down more or less ink (shading).

 

Now, where do you lay down more ink?

 

Writing slanted, ink would tend to go downwards and accumulate at the bottom of the characters. Writing flat, usually you will apply more pressure when writing downwards and lay down more ink at the bottom, and less pressure when writing upwards and lay less color upwards.

 

Side note: on absorbent paper I have noticed I can obtain clear line variation simply changing the speed at which I move the pen.

 

The underscored "usually" above applies most when using M or F nibs, and typical elongated writing for the upper side of a nib tip usually writes thinner than the lower, hence when writing, chances of the nib catching up on paper fibers are larger on the upstroke, so you, consciously or not, tend to apply less pressure and (me at least) do it faster, laying down less ink. As a result the ink pools downwards more.

 

However, one detail that I noticed is that in the samples in the OP, either a K (kugel, spherical or ball point like) or a very broad (or both) nib was used, for line shows no variation and looks thick and even.

 

If you have such a broad and soft nib, then you may apply pressure and speed with different criteria and the ink will pool at different places. Which would explain why it looks more like writing on glossy paper or cards than normal paper to me (I normally use an F or EF, at most an M, and only rarely a B, although I do also like to use stubs, 1.1.mm or less and rarely a 1.5, but then behavior is different).

 

Note that, for an ink to shade, it has to be very sensitive to tiny, almost unnoticeable changes in speed, pressure or slant so that color variation takes place without intentional active intervention on your part.

 

So, concluding, I think the problem, at least with the OP samples, may be rather a combination of a shading ink, a broad nib, a less absorbent paper, a wet pen (that facilitates pooling by laying down lots of ink) and using a round hand on a flat surface where speed changes tend not to associate with down places but to be produced more evenly distributed.

 

But, all of this is just a wild speculation on my part and you should give it due neglection.

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by txomsy
lame attempts at fixing language

[Misfit]

I had Diamine China blue in a TWSBI Diamond Mini, and it looked nothing like the image of the second ink in the example.  

[Karmachanic]

2 hours ago, Misfit said:

had Diamine China blue in a TWSBI Diamond Mini, and it looked nothing like the image of the second ink in the example.

 

Using a Jowo B nib?

[Misfit]

The nib is a 1.1mm stub on my diamond mini.  I will look to see if I saved a writing sample.

 

This is Leuchtturm paper 
 

 

this is Clairefontaine 

 

[Karmachanic]

The Yoseka Notebook's  Conifer paper may be a contributing factor in Kelly's (Mountain of Ink) example.

[WalterC]

That first example of Birmingham ink hurts my eyes.

 

Diamine China Blue seems to vary in appearance a LOT, depending on the pen and paper; most examples are not so horrid as the example you show. Chrissy has a review that shows only a little of that "fake shading": https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/304423-ink-review-diamine-china-blue/ JulieParadise has a comment in that review and says: "This ink has many faces and its appearance on page depends heavily on how long it has been sitting and "ageing" on the paper and how thick = wet it was applied. "

 

I do like "real" shading as done by a flexible nib much better than what you are calling "fake shading".  This fake shading makes it hard to read. I don't like the term "fake shading", but am not sure what a better term would be.

[Horseflesh]

I'm now worried that I like the wrong things.

[USG]

13 hours ago, txomsy said:

I've been thinking about this.

 

I think it must be the dye content or a combination of dye concentration, solubility and ink "wetness".

 

If the "dye" is highly concentrated there will be no difference between points, all will be color oversaturated and there will not be any difference, which is what you would aim for in contents you want to be recorded and readable for a long time.

 

If the dye is low concentration then, depending on the amount of ink laid down on the paper, you will get more or less dye deposited. As you write, the line should look the same, but, as it dries points where you laid down more ink will evaporate water and the "dye" will concentrate. Depending on the dye concentration, color saturation and transparency, this will mean more or less color on points where you lay down more or less ink (shading).

 

Now, where do you lay down more ink?

 

Writing slanted, ink would tend to go downwards and accumulate at the bottom of the characters. Writing flat, usually you will apply more pressure when writing downwards and lay down more ink at the bottom, and less pressure when writing upwards and lay less color upwards.

 

Side note: on absorbent paper I have noticed I can obtain clear line variation simply changing the speed at which I move the pen.

 

The underscored "usually" above applies most when using M or F nibs, and typical elongated writing for the upper side of a nib tip usually writes thinner than the lower, hence when writing, chances of the nib catching up on paper fibers are larger on the upstroke, so you, consciously or not, tend to apply less pressure and (me at least) do it faster, laying down less ink. As a result the ink pools downwards more.

 

However, one detail that I noticed is that in the samples in the OP, either a K (kugel, spherical or ball point like) or a very broad (or both) nib was used, for line shows no variation and looks thick and even.

 

If you have such a broad and soft nib, then you may apply pressure and speed with different criteria and the ink will pool at different places. Which would explain why it looks more like writing on glossy paper or cards than normal paper to me (I normally use an F or EF, at most an M, and only rarely a B, although I do also like to use stubs, 1.1.mm or less and rarely a 1.5, but then behavior is different).

 

Note that, for an ink to shade, it has to be very sensitive to tiny, almost unnoticeable changes in speed, pressure or slant so that color variation takes place without intentional active intervention on your part.

 

So, concluding, I think the problem, at least with the OP samples, may be rather a combination of a shading ink, a broad nib, a less absorbent paper, a wet pen (that facilitates pooling by laying down lots of ink) and using a round hand on a flat surface where speed changes tend not to associate with down places but to be produced more evenly distributed.

 

But, all of this is just a wild speculation on my part and you should give it due neglection.

 

 

Very well thought out... 👍

 

11 hours ago, Misfit said:

I had Diamine China blue in a TWSBI Diamond Mini, and it looked nothing like the image of the second ink in the example.  

 

I have China Blue too and it looks nothing like hers... I picked those examples to illustrate the Fake Shading I was talking about,  not that it has anything to do with her particular ink, pen or paper. There are other examples everywhere.  We don't have to critique her writing samples now that everyone knows what I mean by Fake Shading.

 

7 hours ago, Misfit said:

The nib is a 1.1mm stub on my diamond mini.  I will look to see if I saved a writing sample.

 

This is Leuchtturm paper 
 

 

this is Clairefontaine 

 

 

That stub on Clairefontaine has to be the finest 1.1 stub on the planet. 😀

 

1 hour ago, WalterC said:

That first example of Birmingham ink hurts my eyes.

 

Diamine China Blue seems to vary in appearance a LOT, depending on the pen and paper; most examples are not so horrid as the example you show. Chrissy has a review that shows only a little of that "fake shading": https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/304423-ink-review-diamine-china-blue/ JulieParadise has a comment in that review and says: "This ink has many faces and its appearance on page depends heavily on how long it has been sitting and "ageing" on the paper and how thick = wet it was applied. "

 

I do like "real" shading as done by a flexible nib much better than what you are calling "fake shading".  This fake shading makes it hard to read. I don't like the term "fake shading", but am not sure what a better term would be.

 

I picked those examples just to illustrate what I meant by Fake Shading, not to draw any undue attention to Mountain of Ink.  They are just examples of something you can find all over the internet.

 

I have seen characterization with some bouncy regular nibs, it doesn't necessarily have to be a flexi.  The strangest example of that was recently, with a lightly tuned stock nib on Majohn P136 and Diamine Misty Blue.  I was getting some line variation with lighter pressure and darker wider areas where the pressure was increased.  Of course I couldn't leave things well enough alone, and the P136 now has Waterman Blue and no characterization. 🙂

 

35 minutes ago, Horseflesh said:

I'm now worried that I like the wrong things.

 

If you like it, it's not wrong and you're not alone. 😀👍