"Military" Clip Question; Current Production Fountain Pens.

[afishhunter]

Do any of the pen manufacturers today make a pen with the WW1/WW2 era short "military" style or type clip, like on the c.1947 Esterbrook "J" and Waterman's "Dauntless" pictured below, next to a Jinhao X450 and 992 for comparison?

 

I didn't see a general pen discussion sub-forum, or I would have asked there.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

[VillersCotterets]

39 minutes ago, afishhunter said:

I didn't see a general pen discussion sub-forum, or I would have asked there.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/forum/4-fountain-dip-pens-first-stop/

 

39 minutes ago, afishhunter said:

Do any of the pen manufacturers today make a pen with the WW1/WW2 era short "military" style or type clip

I don't know what you mean by "military style clip". As I understand it, American soldiers were forbidden to have pens or any other personal items protruding from their dress uniforms, so they tended to buy pocket pens like the Sheaffer Tuckaway, intended for ladies' purses. These "purse pens" came to be associated with the military indirectly.



The most practical writing instrument at the front, in the trenches, I imagine, is the lead pencil. You could get them wet and they still worked at any temperature. That said, there were also 'trench pens' issued, with dry ink tablets to be rehydrated with a drop of water.

Today, there are a multitude of discreet pocket pens that can go unnoticed. As for miniature clips, the only one that comes to mind is the Majohn C4. However, this pen is huge. It is bigger than the Montblanc 149. It is impossible to hide it in a pocket.

[Mech-for-i]

The purpose of the military clip is to not having much or if all any part of the cap protruding above the clip so when clipped it would not interfere with the shirt pocket flap cover , AFAIK there are no current fountain pen utilizing the clip but the Pilot Prera likely come as close as it can be

[AceNinja]

11 hours ago, afishhunter said:

WW1/WW2 era short "military" style or type clip

What's a military style clip?

 

[afishhunter]

On 12/12/2022 at 10:21 PM, AceNinja said:

What's a military style clip?

 

The two on the left in post number one are examples of "Military" clips. The Esterbrook clip is 1.125 inch deep. The Waterman's is 1.375 inch.

The "modern" clip on the Jinhao X450 is 1.625 inch deep. The clip on my Lamy Safari (not shown) is a full 2.000 inches deep. 

 

U.S. Military Dress Code Regulations from c.1900 through WW2* specified that a pen/pencil clip could not protrude beyond the pocket flap of a uniform's shirt. 

I believe that the dress code regulation was changed allowing the pen/mechanical pencil clip to protrude past the pocket flap, around 1947 or 1948.

(*I don't know if other nation's military dress code regulations from c.1900 through WW2 regarding pen/mechanical pencil pocket clips, were the same or different. 

.

To be honest, the only advantage I see of the deeper clips is if you have shallow shirt pockets; There is a better chance the clip will be able to grab on.

 

 

.

 

 

[Karmachanic]

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/343135-sheaffers-military-clip-pens-from-wwii-era/

 

 

[Mech-for-i]

On 12/15/2022 at 12:09 AM, afishhunter said:

..

 

U.S. Military Dress Code Regulations from c.1900 through WW2* specified that a pen/pencil clip could not protrude beyond the pocket flap of a uniform's shirt. 

I believe that the dress code regulation was changed allowing the pen/mechanical pencil clip to protrude past the pocket flap, around 1947 or 1948.

...

 

 

I wager even the stubborn military knew how ridiculous this rule was ( even though it actually had reasons behind it ) there were numerous war time photos clearly showing soldiers with pens and pencils clipped to their shirt pockets with the clips clearly showing beyond the flaps .. lol

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

1 hour ago, Mech-for-i said:

 

I wager even the stubborn military knew how ridiculous this rule was ( even though it actually had reasons behind it ) there were numerous war time photos clearly showing soldiers with pens and pencils clipped to their shirt pockets with the clips clearly showing beyond the flaps .. lol

The rule books and the parade ground/in garrison and what happens in the field are very different worlds. 

[VillersCotterets]

7 hours ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

The rule books and the parade ground/in garrison and what happens in the field are very different worlds. 

 

I think you are right. It's all about context.

The current "Army Regulation 670–1 : Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia stipulates" :
 

Quote

[3-4] b. No jewelry, other than that described in paragraph 3–4a or 3–4d, below, can appear exposed while in uniform, or in civilian clothes on duty. Pens and/or pencils worn in the pen/pencil slots on the combat uniform coat may be exposed. There are no stipulations on the colors of pens and/or pencils worn in the slots on the combat uniform coat while wearing the uniform. Watch chains or similar items cannot appear exposed. The only other authorized exceptions are religious items described in DA Pam 670–1 and AR 600–20; a conservative tie tack or tie clasp that male Soldiers may wear with necktie; and a pen or pencil that may appear exposed on the hospital duty, food service, combat vehicle crewman, or flight uniforms.

The only restrictions and/or prohibitions, if they are in force, seem to be on special uniforms for particular occasions, such as parades, funerals, medal presentations, etc. I didn't bother to check further. Soldiers who do this kind of work must be aware of the special rules that apply to their particular activities.

For me, there is and there was no such thing as a "military clip" but a passing fashion, during WWII, for shorter clips. In times of rationing, many things became smaller, with more frugal material consumption.

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

7 hours ago, VillersCotterets said:

 

I think you are right. It's all about context.

The current "Army Regulation 670–1 : Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia stipulates" :
 

The only restrictions and/or prohibitions, if they are in force, seem to be on special uniforms for particular occasions, such as parades, funerals, medal presentations, etc. I didn't bother to check further. Soldiers who do this kind of work must be aware of the special rules that apply to their particular activities.

For me, there is and there was no such thing as a "military clip" but a passing fashion, during WWII, for shorter clips. In times of rationing, many things became smaller, with more frugal material consumption.

Soldiers on parade don’t really have a need for pens and pencils. They just want a Time Machine so the parade ends quickly and they can back to doing something else. 
 

wrt no such thing as a military clip; Parker specifically advertised that the clip on a vac met army regs:

 

Not my scan. Unsure where i snagged this from. Likely Google books. 

[Ink Stained Wretch]

I thought that a "military clip" was a rather stubby thing that was so short so that it wouldn't attract the attention of someone who might find it a good thing to shoot at. But advertising hype is a good alternative too.