life of nib tipping

[Harish N V]

i have off late been wondering about the life of the tipping and how easily does it wear off. i do purchase  quite a number of vintage pens and in that context wonder about tipping and how long does it last? here i would like to put three specific questions.

1) are fine nibs really suited for long and continuous writing sessions. because i do write around 5 pages a day and use fine tipped pens continuously. so how long do they last when doing continuous writing. do i need to change the nibs after a while?

 

2) how does a broad respond to the above situation?

 

3) are tips meant to last a lifetime. because depending on this i would put my expensive pens to sparing use

[dipper]

 

[Harish N V]

thank you for this link. that was an interesting thread. gives me a better sense of things

[A Smug Dill]

10 hours ago, Harish N V said:

in that context wonder about tipping and how long does it last? …‹snip›…

1) are fine nibs really suited for long and continuous writing sessions. because i do write around 5 pages a day and use fine tipped pens continuously.

 

How rough (or “toothy”) is the paper surface, how lubricating is the ink you chose and, more importantly, how hard do you as the user press down with your pen(s)? There is no meaningful answer to be given if you don't assess those factors against some sort of framework for evaluation, irrespective of the age or the material of the nib tipping.

[Paul-in-SF]

11 hours ago, Harish N V said:

1) are fine nibs really suited for long and continuous writing sessions (snip)?

 

2) how does a broad respond to the above situation?

 

A fine nib should not be different in this respect from a broad nib. The wider tipping on the broad nib would not by itself make the tipping last longer, for the simple reason that a wider area of the tipping is also in contact with the paper (hence the broader line) and so is getting worn at the same rate.

 

Another factor in tipping wear (regardless of the nib width) would be the ink, whether it is more lubricated or in some other way provides more protection for the tipping from the action of the paper. 

[Harish N V]

1 hour ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

How rough (or “toothy”) is the paper surface, how lubricating is the ink you chose and, more importantly, how hard do you as the user press down with your pen(s)? There is no meaningful answer to be given if you don't assess those factors against some sort of framework for evaluation, irrespective of the age or the material of the nib tipping.

this makes a lot of sense. i never thought about ink as being such an important factor.

36 minutes ago, Paul-in-SF said:

 

A fine nib should not be different in this respect from a broad nib. The wider tipping on the broad nib would not by itself make the tipping last longer, for the simple reason that a wider area of the tipping is also in contact with the paper (hence the broader line) and so is getting worn at the same rate.

 

Another factor in tipping wear (regardless of the nib width) would be the ink, whether it is more lubricated or in some other way provides more protection for the tipping from the action of the paper. 

thank you for this insight on nib widths

[ParramattaPaul]

I have no answers, but I suspect that it would take a number of years -- decades perhaps -- of constant use to actually wear off the tipping

[txomsy]

No need to suspect, I've used pens for decades and they still write. The EF are still EF.

 

But a cursory search for baby's bottom will show that it may be solved by drawing 8's in kraft paper... so a rough paper will put a heavier strain.

 

Still, I have used uncoated paper most of my life and the EF are still EF. Can't compare with how the nib was when new, but does not look too worn.

 

If you like vintage pens, consider they were bought and used in a time when no computers existed and most people would only have one or two pens to write with, so they would be used daily, and if by a clerk, heavily. And likely (if old enough) by more than one generation.  If they still keep the tip, then you can estimate how long more they would last with heavy daily use, which is heavier than what one would define as heavy today.

 

That said, if you get vintage you will also have seen (even if only on the Net) the odd nib without tipping, or even with relatively modern pens, the odd one that loses the tipping. It has to be welt into the nib and some makers may use low quality material or low quality procedures, so maybe the tipping erodes quickly because of low quality or maybe it completely falls down due to bad welding. Not to mention accidents where the pen falls nib down.

 

As usual, you get what you pay for, only in this respect it includes pen, paper and ink at the very least.

[Harish N V]

3 hours ago, ParramattaPaul said:

I have no answers, but I suspect that it would take a number of years -- decades perhaps -- of constant use to actually wear off the tipping

thank you for the response. 

31 minutes ago, txomsy said:

No need to suspect, I've used pens for decades and they still write. The EF are still EF.

 

But a cursory search for baby's bottom will show that it may be solved by drawing 8's in kraft paper... so a rough paper will put a heavier strain.

 

Still, I have used uncoated paper most of my life and the EF are still EF. Can't compare with how the nib was when new, but does not look too worn.

 

If you like vintage pens, consider they were bought and used in a time when no computers existed and most people would only have one or two pens to write with, so they would be used daily, and if by a clerk, heavily. And likely (if old enough) by more than one generation.  If they still keep the tip, then you can estimate how long more they would last with heavy daily use, which is heavier than what one would define as heavy today.

 

That said, if you get vintage you will also have seen (even if only on the Net) the odd nib without tipping, or even with relatively modern pens, the odd one that loses the tipping. It has to be welt into the nib and some makers may use low quality material or low quality procedures, so maybe the tipping erodes quickly because of low quality or maybe it completely falls down due to bad welding. Not to mention accidents where the pen falls nib down.

 

As usual, you get what you pay for, only in this respect it includes pen, paper and ink at the very least.

thank you for the long and clear response.  i like the fact that it is from yout experience as a pen user and it makes a lot of sense

[IlikeInksandIcannotlie]

8 hours ago, Paul-in-SF said:

A fine nib should not be different in this respect from a broad nib. The wider tipping on the broad nib would not by itself make the tipping last longer, for the simple reason that a wider area of the tipping is also in contact with the paper (hence the broader line) and so is getting worn at the same rate.

But wouldn't a broad nib be thicker, and hence have more thickness to wear off? Sure, it is very likely a broad nib will develop a foot at the same rate as the fine, but could the nib not be used by the original user fairly well for longer due to the thicker tipping?

[Paul-in-SF]

"Thicker" nib tipping can mean either wider (side to side) or deeper (top to bottom). The tipping on a broad nib is, by definition, wider than that on a fine nib, but there is no reason it needs to be deeper. Properly shaped wide tipping, with the pen held without twisting or leaning, will contact the paper across the width, and the whole width will therefore wear away at roughly the same rate. 

 

Picture two pieces of chalk on a  chalkboard. One is the regular thick-pencil size that you may be familiar with, the other is three times as wide. If both are held perpendicular to the chalkboard and drawn back and forth the same number of strokes, they should wear down at the same rate. That's a fairly naïve comparison, but it illustrates the point.

[Olya]

1 hour ago, Paul-in-SF said:

"Thicker" nib tipping can mean either wider (side to side) or deeper (top to bottom). The tipping on a broad nib is, by definition, wider than that on a fine nib, but there is no reason it needs to be deeper. Properly shaped wide tipping, with the pen held without twisting or leaning, will contact the paper across the width, and the whole width will therefore wear away at roughly the same rate. 

 

Picture two pieces of chalk on a  chalkboard. One is the regular thick-pencil size that you may be familiar with, the other is three times as wide. If both are held perpendicular to the chalkboard and drawn back and forth the same number of strokes, they should wear down at the same rate. That's a fairly naïve comparison, but it illustrates the point.

Brilliant post, this is what I was thinking about...

 

The depth of the tipping on the nib itself will play a huge role.

 

But in some instances, entirely manufacturer depending, a broad nib also features a thicker bit of tipping at the point which touches the paper. A fine (or finer) tip has a very small little ball, but a broad has a thick underside (paper-facing), so in that case a broad should still outlast a fine. If the depth is deeper on top of that, that would mean even better longevity.

 

I think most manufacturers make thicker broads (in terms of actual tipping touching paper, like a hanging belly).

Comparing my Sailor, Pilot, Pelikan, Parker, Sheaffer, Waterman and Lamy nibs that seems to be the case.

Platinum's B appears kind of flatter and doesn't have that massive bit of tipping on the underside, so in this case I think the idea of F and B lasting about equally long is true.

Similar the older Pelikan I have.

 

A nib wearing out should still be a rare thing though (for one person over a lifetime).

[Harish N V]

wow.this thread is getting really interesting and absorbing

[Ron Z]

Given a number of variables, it's hard to say how long a nib will last.  I have seen some vintage nibs that are worn down completely or have a big flat spot, but that is rare.  Most of the serious wear that I see is caused by nib smoothing done badly.

 

In general. I think that three factors determine the rate of wear:

 

* Harness if the tipping material

* Abrasiveness of the paper

* Pressure applied when writing.

 

Hardness varies by manufacturer.  For instance, MB tipping material is much harder than what Sheaffer was using in the 90s - much easier to reshape and smooth a modern Sheaffer nib than MB.  A heavy handed writer will wear a nib down faster than someone with a light touch, and a course abrasive paper will wear a nib - eventually.  Given how many pens most collectors have, and how much they are actually used VS the one pen owner decades ago, I don't think that we need worry about a nib wearing out in normal use.

 

[dipper]

The study of frictional wear is a major ongoing area of study.

The overall field is "Tribolgy", and the study of wear processes is one topic within that broader discipline.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribology

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wear

 

It is a complex area of research. Speculations about wear rates in this forum topic are interesting to read, but always bear in mind the difficulty of this subject in theoretical and experimental studies.

 

For example, general principals observed about wear rates, mentioned with equations in both Wikipedia links given above, do support the idea that broad and fine nibs will have similar wear rates. But those "wear rates" are stated as mass removal rates, or volume removal rates.

 

I conclude that the same mass or volume of tipping worn away from a narrower nib width must shorten the narrower tipping legthways by a greater distance - in theory.

However, if actual fine-tip nibs are reported by users to last decades then that seems to be the most significant result.

 

[XYZZY]

I vaguely recall reading once that some old pens the refining of the tipping material was not very good, to the extent that sometimes you might get unrefined ore soldered onto the end.  With the point being that this tipping was relatively fragile--chipping easily, or wearing by the occasional chunk breaking off.  If true that could certainly give credence to the idea that older pens have nibs that wear faster, or even the idea that nibs adapted to the user--no longer true of current pens, but some rules of thumb refuse to die.  I'm pretty sure that comment was about pens that are now probably 100+ years old (the pens that were vintage when your current vintage pen was being made 🙂

 

I wish I could could find that, though.  I want to say it was on richardspens somewhere, but I'm not finding it right now.

[InesF]

That's an interesting post and a good question at all, @Harish N V.

 

While I can understand the desire to know about the useable time of an expensive pen, it the detail that can't be answered precisely. As the other porters in this thread already mentioned, there are many variables.

 

However, I can contribute with my own experience:

I used an entry or next level fountain pen with steel nib and not so high sophisticated tipping, the Waterman Maestro in M, for about 25 years as my one and only pen. I wrote everything with it on every type of paper, cardboard and whatever, smooth and rough. I used a total of ca. 2.5 litre ink (which should be equal to ca. 415 km line length). At this point, the tipping does show some wear which can be seen under the microscope.

 

Maybe this report from the praxis can help you.

All the best with your high end pens!

[Azulado]

1 hour ago, InesF said:

the Waterman Maestro in M, for about 25 years as my one and only pen

I used a Parker Sonnet (gold nib) as my sole pen for 25 years and it shows wear and tear, but it can be written with no problem. A sanded would make the nib as good as new. Unfortunately, I bent the tines and the repair was not perfect, the gold no longer returns to its original shape.
It should be noted that my technique was poor until three years ago, when I stopped using the Sonnet and started to take an interest in pens and collecting them. Today I dare say that, writing with good technique, the nib can last forever. I write much more now than I used to and none of my nibs show any wear and tear.

 

[senzen]

Writing on paper, 4,500 years. Pressing down on micromesh perhaps 10 minutes.

[Tony1951]

On 11/9/2022 at 4:09 AM, Paul-in-SF said:

 

A fine nib should not be different in this respect from a broad nib. The wider tipping on the broad nib would not by itself make the tipping last longer, for the simple reason that a wider area of the tipping is also in contact with the paper (hence the broader line) and so is getting worn at the same rate.

 

Hmmmm - not so sure you have taken account of all the factors here Paul. The pressure per sq mm on a broad nib would be less than on a fine nib in the same writer's hand.  I put to you that this would cause less wear on the broader nib, because the pressure on the contact patch is more widely distributed and therefore is less than on the fine one.