Writing angles.

[Darryl Foster]

I've recently adopted a new angle for my fps: I used to use a perpendicular angle to the writing line - now I'm using around 45 degrees. I believe this is standard on all nibs except flex nibs. Am I correct on this? 

 

[Darryl Foster]

I've gone back to my old perpendiular angle - the new angle was too awkward to maintain.

[effrafax]

Well 45º is a bit extreme to suddenly switch to from vertical.  You could try something a little closer to vertical and work your way down!  Around 60º would probably be a lot easier.

 

This spoken as someone who also writes pretty much vertically to the line.  I've tried writing at an angle (aside from a little Copperplate) but it always looks 'forced' and very erratic.

 

 

[ParramattaPaul]

Me personally; somewhere around 30 deg. Seems normal.

[effrafax]

2 hours ago, ParramattaPaul said:

Me personally; somewhere around 30 deg. Seems normal.

 

From the vertical or horizontal?!?

 

[Darryl Foster]

I'm using my old verticle angle, again - it seems more comfortable. I'm sure 45 degrees works fine for italic calligraphy, but - for me - it is too awkward when applied to handwriting. 

[arcfide]

1 hour ago, Darryl Foster said:

I'm using my old verticle angle, again - it seems more comfortable. I'm sure 45 degrees works fine for italic calligraphy, but - for me - it is too awkward when applied to handwriting. 

 

Are you also keeping the paper orientation correct? When people hold their pen at a 45 degree angle to the paper for Italic calligraphy, they're also usually keeping the paper straight up and down relative to the body. On the other hand, usually the perpendicular hold comes with rotating the paper roughly 45 degrees counter clockwise (for right handers) to put the pen at that angle. Thus, both techniques actually have the hand position in roughly the same spot. 

[Darryl Foster]

I never thought of that. I do rotate my paper at about 45 degrees and write with the nib perpendicular to the writing line.

[ParramattaPaul]

9 hours ago, effrafax said:

 

From the vertical or horizontal?!?

 

From the horizontal. 

[effrafax]

7 hours ago, ParramattaPaul said:

From the horizontal. 

 

Wow, that's extreme.  I find Copperplate at 55º enough of a lean, can't imagine writing any lower than that.  I also can't imagine reading anything at 30º ...

 

[ParramattaPaul]

17 minutes ago, effrafax said:

 

Wow, that's extreme.  I find Copperplate at 55º enough of a lean, can't imagine writing any lower than that.  I also can't imagine reading anything at 30º ...

 

Actually, it is quite comfortable for me.  I grip the pen or pencil higher, and with that my hand seems more relaxed.  Gripping a writing instrument closer to the tip naturally forces a steeper angle from the horizontal, and the hand becomes more tense.

 

I suspect dip pens required a higher hold and thusly a shallower angle from the horizontal.  Those who regularly use dip pens for calligraphy can tell us if I am mistaken.

[A Smug Dill]

5 minutes ago, ParramattaPaul said:

Gripping a writing instrument closer to the tip naturally forces a steeper angle from the horizontal, and the hand becomes more tense.

 

I think ‘we’ are getting two things mixed up here. The O.P. appears to be talking about orientation of the nib in relation to the edges of a rectangular sheet of paper, i.e. if the ruled lines run from 9-o'clock to 3-o'clock, is the nib slit at 12-o'clock (thus vertical)? 11-o'clock (thus rotated 30° counterclockwise from the vertical)? etc. You seem to be talking about the angle between the pen body and the plane of the paper's surface.

 

Then, both of those metrics are different from the slant of the script…

[ParramattaPaul]

19 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

I think ‘we’ are getting two things mixed up here. The O.P. appears to be talking about orientation of the nib in relation to the edges of a rectangular sheet of paper, i.e. if the ruled lines run from 9-o'clock to 3-o'clock, is the nib slit at 12-o'clock (thus vertical)? 11-o'clock (thus rotated 30° counterclockwise from the vertical)? etc. You seem to be talking about the angle between the pen body and the plane of the paper's surface.

 

Then, both of those metrics are different from the slant of the script…

Ah! My understanding was that the OP was asking about pen angle to the writing surface.  My replies were in answer to that question as I understood it.  In answer to orientation of the pen slot to the lines of a page oriented 9 to 3 o'clock, my answer is the slot for me in all cases is oriented at the 12 o'clock.

[ParramattaPaul]

Now, if we are talking about the angle of the formed letters on the page, the script lean, left, right, or neutral (vertical), then for me a left-hander it varies +/- 5 to 10 degrees from the vertical depending upon what, why, and how fast I'm writing.

[A Smug Dill]

On 10/1/2022 at 12:35 AM, Darryl Foster said:

… around 45 degrees. I believe this is standard on all nibs except flex nibs. Am I correct on this?

 

I'm afraid not, even though that's how I hold my fountain pens to write.

 

17 hours ago, Darryl Foster said:

I'm sure 45 degrees works fine for italic calligraphy, but - for me - it is too awkward when applied to handwriting. 

 

Different hands/scripts call for different orientation of the nib, even when using broad-edged nibs. See, for example, The Calligrapher's Bible: 100 complete alphabets and how to draw them by David Harris. Furthermore, while he puts the nib orientation at 40° from the horizontal for Roman and Italic scripts, Eleanor Winters suggested, ”The traditional pen angle for Italic is 45°,” in her book Italic and Copperplate Calligraphy: The Basics and Beyond.

 

Is there a ratified ‘standard’, or at least one with which the absolute majority of practitioners of a particular hand could agree on? I'm not sure.

[effrafax]

57 minutes ago, ParramattaPaul said:

Now, if we are talking about the angle of the formed letters on the page, the script lean, left, right, or neutral (vertical), then for me a left-hander it varies +/- 5 to 10 degrees from the vertical depending upon what, why, and how fast I'm writing.

 

That's what I thought we were talking about.  My mistake.  Now your 30° makes much more sense.  My own pen angle to the page would be 40-45°.

 

[A Smug Dill]

36 minutes ago, effrafax said:

Now your 30° makes much more sense.

 

9 hours ago, ParramattaPaul said:

From the horizontal.

 

With ━ being horizontal and parallel with the plane of the paper surface, ⦨30° is an exceedingly shallow contact angle, or incident angle, or angle of approach all the same. Most fountain pens probably won't even lend themselves to be used properly at such a shallow angle, not the least because the feed would probably touch the paper surface (either before the bottom curvature on the nib tipping material does, or simultaneously with such).

[ParramattaPaul]

43 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

... because the feed would probably touch the paper surface (either before the bottom curvature on the nib tipping material does, or simultaneously with such).

It doesn't.  I will try to take a photograph later.

[arcfide]

18 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Eleanor Winters suggested, ”The traditional pen angle for Italic is 45°,” in her book Italic and Copperplate Calligraphy: The Basics and Beyond.

 

To muddy the waters even further, the 45° angle isn't even really traditional depending on what you consider Italic. In the "new renaissance" of modern Italic writing popularized by the likes of Alfred Fairbanks and such, 45° was a very common angle to use because it allows for a rapid and easy test of your writing angle by writing a cross and seeing whether the two strokes are the same width. However, even at that time, you can find articles discussing a preference for more or less angle on the letters.

 

But in a sense, this Italic hand that was taught at that time, which some people consider "traditional" is actually quite a modern invention, being a revitalization of the older script. If we look at something like Arrighi's work, you can see that he takes great pains to document the stroke order and shape of the letters, emphasizing thick and thin, but he makes no direct reference to the actual nib angle on the page relative to the baseline. It seems likely to me that the angle of the nib to the page was something that was cultivated through significant trial and practice over time working with the quill at that time. I believe you could even have a sharp point and use pressure to do most of the work at that time. 

[Darryl Foster]

I think I've started quite a debate, here!