Is a ballpoint technically a fountain pen?

[Frank C]

4 minutes ago, PPPR said:

Thank you for your reply.

 

I fully understand and commiserate with the hazards of corresponding in the wee hours having injudiciously wandered into that quagmire myself.

All I have to add is "Covfefe". 

[PPPR]

1 hour ago, Frank C said:

All I have to add is "Covfefe". 

Very good! And let me add all quotes were fully declassified before posting. ;0)

[Inkysloth]

17 hours ago, ParramattaPaul said:

I stand corrected. 

 

My only excuse, and an excuse only, would be that I may have written that in the wee hours. Regardless, I did not properly consider, define,  or explain what I meant to say.

 

Mea maxima culpa.

I understand the reasoning, thanks for clarifying!

 

I might have to take a tangential thread off in an ink subforum, because I find “fuzzy edged” words and things very interesting. Where does ink end and paint begin? And the question of whether a ballpoint pen is a fountain pen, my gut says no, but maybe it’s that because the fountain pen is the ancestor of the ballpoint, the ballpoint is simply an offshoot or subset of broader “pens with internal ink reservoirs.” 
 

That said, I will never accept Parker’s 5th Technology Pen as a fountain pen, no matter what their marketing material tried to imply!

[Bristol24]

Earlier in this thread I said that if ever there was a group of people that could define the term "fountain pen" it should be us but that I doubted we would be able.  We toss around the term "fountain pen" on this forum and every one of us knows precisely what it is. We even have a forum for the discussion of writing instruments that are not fountain pens.  In that respect we are quite precise yet we apply the word "ink" quite broadly yet we all know that fountain pen ink is not ink in the traditional sense.  Shaffer's, Arnold, Carter's, and Sanford's, to name just a few, went out of their way to call their fountain pen ink "writing fluid," not ink.  They did this for a very important reason.  Traditional ink did not work in this new writing instrument called a "fountain pen."  To say that a ballpoint pen is technically a fountain pen is merely an assertion.  It can be supported with evidence but not conclusively proven.  I will say that in my young days when the transition from fountain pens to ballpoint pens was in process, we heard the inclusive term "ink pen" being used often as a means of not being specific.

 

Cliff

[ParramattaPaul]

8 hours ago, Bristol24 said:

In that respect we are quite precise yet we apply the word "ink" quite broadly yet we all know that fountain pen ink is not ink in the traditional sense.  Shaffer's, Arnold, Carter's, and Sanford's, to name just a few, went out of their way to call their fountain pen ink "writing fluid," not ink.  They did this for a very important reason.  Traditional ink did not work in this new writing instrument called a "fountain pen."  To say that a ballpoint pen is technically a fountain pen is merely an assertion.  It can be supported with evidence but not conclusively proven.

Interesting.  And yet ... 

 

 

[Bristol24]

29 minutes ago, ParramattaPaul said:

Interesting.  And yet ... 

 

 

My apology.  I should have been more specific.  Those companies calling their fountain pen ink "writing fluid" were doing so during the decades-long transition from dip pens to fountain pens.  Traditional dip pen inks would ruin fountain pens hence the term "writing fluid" to differentiate traditional ink from ink specifically for use in fountain pens.  Today virtually all ink manufacturers call their fountain pen writing fluid "ink." 

 

An interesting and defining observation regarding the significant differences between dip, fountain, and ballpoint pens:

 

Dip pens can use fountain pen ink but fountain pens cannot use most dip pen inks yet dip pens rely on capillary flow to write even though their inks would clog a fountain pen.  Ballpoints, on the other hand rely not on capillary flow but on mechanical transfer.  Consequently their inks are more of a paste that is too thick to flow via capillary action between the ball and it's housing.  Ballpoints do not, consequently, require a feed or other system of buffering because everything about their design is to defeat caillary flow in order to avoid blobs of ink on the ball or on the paper as we used to experience with early ballpoints back in the 1950s and early to mid 60s.  Those early ballpoints were messy until the problem of unintended capillary flow was arrested with better fitting balls and high viscosity (paste like) inks.  To test this, simply grab a sheet of any highly absorbent toilet tissue and put the tip of any fountain pen lightly on the sheet it only takes a few seconds to physically see why it is called a "fountain" pen.  The ink will continue flowing until the paper is saturated, the ink is emptied, or the point is lifted.  Do the same test with the typical ballpoint. It will make a dot...maybe.  It is for these reasons that I say ballpoint pens are technically not fountain pens.

 

Cliff

[Inkysloth]

2 hours ago, Bristol24 said:

Dip pens can use fountain pen ink but fountain pens cannot use most dip pen inks yet dip pens rely on capillary flow to write even though their inks would clog a fountain pen. 

This is where I’m going to show my ignorance, but in my experience ink runs from a dip

nib more by surface tension pulling it than from the ink moving through a narrow capillary. I’m not sure what the first type of fluid movement would be termed. 
 

This tendency can make fountain pen inks too thin to work well with dip nibs, they can tend to just dump the whole load onto the page in one go. (Pelikan 4001 Brilliant Black always seems to behave with dip nibs, however!)

[AceNinja]

On 8/25/2022 at 11:08 PM, PPPR said:

Allow me to add a more recent citation from someone more qualified than me. In 2016, Pat Ost gave a talk at the annual meeting of the Writing Equipment Society in London. His talk was subsequently published in two parts by the society in their journal. Mr. Ost was at one time the lead ink chemist for Parker Pen UK at Newhaven, leaving the company in 2008.

 

In his talk he stated, "The Parker rollerball refill was a development initiated by the Parker Pen (USA) Development Department; it was a ground-breaking innovative design that used a low viscosity ink, combined with a collector and feed design, not dissimilar to a fountain pen, to prevent leakage. Although there were differences in detail in collector function between the rollerball and a fountain pen, it could fairly be described as a disposable fountain pen with a rolling ball point in a tiny refill package that produced a good quality line life of around 1800 metres from 2ml of ink." (emphases added)

 

I think Mr. Ost's remarks support my position that a RB is a type of fountain pen. Of course, you are free to draw your own conclusion.

 

________

The qoute is from "My Trials and Tribulations in Ink (Part 2)" by Pat Ost. Journal of the Writing Equipment Society, No. 109, Summer 2017, pg. 15.

Here are my thoughts on this.  Again, this is just my opinion, not trying to change yours.  Ok here goes:

1. "...combined with a collector and feed design, not dissimilar to a fountain pen, ..." - its not dissimilar to, doesn't mean it is a fountain pen.  And further, he's only talking about the feed and collector, not the nib.  
2. "...it could fairly be described as a disposable fountain pen ..." - its only 'fairly', doens't read like it is a fountain pen to me.
3. Also, I would at most say that, the rollerball refill that "could be fairly" described as disposable fountain pen, it only applies to this particular Parker Rollerball refill.  

[A Smug Dill]

35 minutes ago, AceNinja said:

"...it could fairly be described as a disposable fountain pen ..." - its only 'fairly', doens't read like it is a fountain pen to me.

 

I think “fair” there is not an adjective to fall somewhere on the spectrum between “poor” and ”excellent”, but means it is reasonable and without undue bias.

[Bristol24]

On 8/27/2022 at 5:26 PM, Inkysloth said:

This is where I’m going to show my ignorance, but in my experience ink runs from a dip

nib more by surface tension pulling it than from the ink moving through a narrow capillary. I’m not sure what the first type of fluid movement would be termed. 
 

This tendency can make fountain pen inks too thin to work well with dip nibs, they can tend to just dump the whole load onto the page in one go. (Pelikan 4001 Brilliant Black always seems to behave with dip nibs, however!)

You are correct.  I oversimplified the differences between "inks" formulated for use in dip pens versus  those formulated for use in fountain pens but my point was and is that both the dip pen and the fountain pen rely on the instantaneous capillary flow that occurs when the tip of the nib touches a hydrophilic surface such as paper; something that cannot and must not happen with a ballpoint pen.  By design, ballpoint pens discourage capillary flow from the ballpoint to writing surface and, instead, rely on the mechanical transfer of their typically thick, paste-like ink via a tiny ball rolling under friction and contact pressure with the writing surface.

 

Cliff

[Karmachanic]

On 8/27/2022 at 11:05 AM, Bristol24 said:

"ink pen"

 

An aside.

 

The first time I heard this term was when, freshly arrived in Baltimore in 1998 from the Caribbean, I was completely baffled when asked if I had an "ink pin".  In the local accent I found pen and pin indistiguishable.

 

Changed countries twice since that time. Hon.

 

Back to our regular programme.

 

[Parker51]

On 8/29/2022 at 12:43 AM, A Smug Dill said:

 

I think “fair” there is not an adjective to fall somewhere on the spectrum between “poor” and ”excellent”, but means it is reasonable and without undue bias.

This is a point of discussion between my wife and I. I am of the thought and habit that fair means middling and of the minimum of characteristics as to how well something is proceeding while her definition of fair more closely matches yours. Thus when she indicates she feels fair she is indicating she is feeling reasonably well and without undue stress or concerns, a neutral position of emotion while I interpret it as not being well, positive and proceeding productively towards an optimal state. 
 

Her and your definitions make much more sense than mine. I will need to research why my definition appears so flawed.

[Parker51]

2 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

 

An aside.

 

The first time I heard this term was when, freshly arrived in Baltimore in 1998 from the Caribbean, I was completely baffled when asked if I had an "ink pin".  In the local accent I found pen and pin indistiguishable.

 

Changed countries twice since that time. Hon.

 

Back to our regular programme.

 

My deceased mother in law used the term ink pen. She was born and matured a long time ago in a semi rural setting. I conjectured it dated back to the time when small metal devices called pens were sold in large amounts to be mounted on pen holders to produce what today we call dip pens. She indicated that her school desks were fitted with bottles and such devices. Later she used a fountain pen, of such low quality that she referred to them as scratchy things and so she preferred a pencil. She did transition to what are commonly called ballpoints and referred to them as ink pens, never ballpoints.

 

So perhaps the term Ballpoint doesn’t mean the same thing to everyone. She as example didn’t use it or even think of using it. In some places it is referred to as a biro. I actually have a “ballpoint” fountain pen, if you translate the German terms into English in typical ways. It is a Pelikan 140 equipped with a ballpoint nib, the type created for those who rotate their hands while writing.

 

So, a given ballpoint can be a fountain pen, but are all writing instruments referred to as ballpoints fountain pens? 
 

If the definition of ball point is a ball used at the point then why aren’t rollerballs referred to as ballpoints as well. Perhaps there are several different types of “ballpoints”. First, a writing instrument consisting of a replaceable pen typically made of steel with a ball shaped end fitted into a pen holder that is dipped in ink, Second, a writing instrument consisting of a nib, typically made of a gold alloy with a ball shaped end permanently affixed to the device with a reservoir of ink filled using a mechanical filling mechanism. Third…

You get the idea.
 

These writing instruments do not neatly fit into single definitions. The terms vary by language, time of discussion and innovation and change.

 

Oh, and one thing that hasn’t been mentioned, Ballpoints can’t be refilled by end users. The entire mechanism is factory produced and requires replacement as a unit. This is a salient difference. Perhaps someday this will change, but currently it exists as a constant and should be included in the commonly held definition of the common ballpoint.

[Bristol24]

16 minutes ago, Parker51 said:

I will need to research why my definition appears so flawed.

Flawed?  Hardly.  In the saying, "fair to middlin'" as a response to "how are you doing?" is fair above or below middling?  Fair weather in sailing would mean weather that is not bad...but certainly not ideal.  The term is highly subjective; far more so than defining a ballpoint pen as a form of fountain pen.  Of course because you wife's definition is more positive than yours you may want to adopt her usage...not that she is right or you are wrong...but simply to be on the same page....but back to ballpoints and fountain pens...

 

Cliff

[wtlh]

To me the very definition of "fountain" in fountain pen is its ability to hold ink in a reservoir that is separate from the nib/writing head.  In other words, the pen can be refilled without changing the writing head.

 

A ball point pen is just a sleeve for the ball point refill, which is for all intent and purposes the actual pen. You cannot refill a ball point pen.  Refilling a ball point pen is an action of placing the same sleeve to cover a new pen.

[Karmachanic]

6 hours ago, Parker51 said:

Ballpoints can’t be refilled by end users.

 

Just went looking and discovered that Aliexpress has a ballpoint with a converter.

[wtlh]

31 minutes ago, Karmachanic said:

 

Just went looking and discovered that Aliexpress has a ballpoint with a converter.

While they are calling it a ballpoint, it is a rollerball, not a ballpoint.  Ballpoint pens use oil based inks, rollerball ink are water based.   So they have made a rollerball head that can write with fountain pen ink, quite interesting.  I am not sure it will work well though... Proper rollerball ink are gel like specifically because thinner inks will likely leak.

[Karmachanic]

42 minutes ago, wtlh said:

While they are calling it a ballpoint, it is a rollerball, not a ballpoint. 

 

5 hours ago, wtlh said:

the very definition of "fountain" in fountain pen is its ability to hold ink in a reservoir that is separate from the nib/writing head

 

It holds ink in a converter seperate from thr writing head.

[wtlh]

23 minutes ago, Karmachanic said:

 

 

It holds ink in a converter seperate from thr writing head.

Yes that one I would say qualifies as a fountain pen in my book.  Albeit it is probably going to be a poor implementation of a fountain pen, due to the inherent weakness of the rollerball head design for traditional water based fountain pen inks.

 

Nevertheless one never knows until we test it.

[wtlh]

27 minutes ago, Karmachanic said:

 

 

It holds ink in a converter seperate from thr writing head.

 

Just for completeness the translation for "fountain pen" in Chinese is either "steel pen" or "gold pen", depending on the nib material.

 

I feel the Chinese term of the same pen type is more specific on the nib type VS. English term, which focuses on the filling system.

 

When we were young we were taught to only use pencils or fountain pens because of penmanship.  Ballpoint/rollerball pens due to their tip design require a more vertical posture, which is said to ruin good penmanship.  I am not so sure about the felt tipped pens.

 

Thus, if we use the Chinese definition, then it is the nib design which determines whether a pen is fountain pen or not, and would definitely exclude all pens which don't have a traditional metal nib with two tines.